A Kharkov Sneak Peek...

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Actually, WS had relative spotting also, but it was not done as well as in Kharkov. It also didn't have the feature where it would only show you the enemy units a selected unit could see, so for many it seemed as if it was only relative targeting. Under the hood, the sighting was always relative, but in Kharkov it's also more accurately resolved and easy to see from the user's perspective.

OK, you are right. With the icons appearing it makes it so much easier.

[general_solomon]

Eric,

just a suggestion. please post some of this in other gamers forums.  dont forget gamespot.com, armchair general, wargamer.com.  to name a few. 

I really like the improvements.  What about infantry and building destruction.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

ORIGINAL: general_solomon

Eric,

just a suggestion. please post some of this in other gamers forums.

Yep, the news really is kind of buried down here. I only discovered it because I was looking around. And if folks aren't log'd in they won't see the illuminated forum icon indicating that there's a new thread posted. [:(]

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Prince of Eckmühl]

At one time there was talk about increasing the size of the maps. Has this taken place with the Kharkov expansion? It matters because the kilometer-square variety in OWS had the tendency to funnel the fighiting of the battles into the corners, whereupon, play tended to get pretty gamey.

PoE

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
At one time there was talk about increasing the size of the maps. Has this taken place with the Kharkov expansion? It matters because the kilometer-square variety in OWS had the tendency to funnel the fighiting of the battles into the corners, whereupon, play tended to get pretty gamey.
PoE

There's more interesting terrain in this expansion it's not as flat as OWS. And most of the weapons of this period don't range a kilomenter.
Two kilometers would be nice unless you have to walk your infantry that distance. It would take infantry about 40 phases to move that far. And there's a lot of infantry in Kharkov as the Russian campaign follows the exploits of a Rifle Division.

[Prince of Eckmühl]

Hi Mobius,

I'm gonna take that response to mean that the maps remain 1km x 1km.

My concern in this regard isn't born out of any desire to create some kind of monster-game with 52 vehicles per side, engaging each other across the expanse of a huge map. Rather, I'd just like to see units deployed along the map edges, with the VP locations situated towards the center or other map edges instead of in the corners. That way play would tend to gravitate away from the corners, again, where things tend to get silly at times.

One way or the other, I'll live. But, increasing the size of the maps strikes me as one of the truly desirable improvements that could be made to the game in the future.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
I'm gonna take that response to mean that the maps remain 1km x 1km.

OK, yes. Its an expansion afterall. Not a redo.

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
My concern in this regard isn't born out of any desire to create some kind of monster-game with 52 vehicles per side, engaging each other across the expanse of a huge map. Rather, I'd just like to see units deployed along the map edges, with the VP locations situated towards the center or other map edges instead of in the corners. That way play would tend to gravitate away from the corners, again, where things tend to get silly at times.

52 units per side isn't impossible. You can do that in OWS.
It did seem like a lot of missions in OWS started with your guys in one corner and the flags and the enemy in the other three. The Kharkov missions are more a mixture of all kinds of configurations. You can see where the flags are placed in the mini-maps in the above screen pics.

How come no one is asking about all the top concerns from OWS? Like smoke, second phase reverse and infantry sighting?

[benpark]

Looks interesting, though I admit the first iteration didn't seem to "take" with me.

A few questions in the hope that this expansion will add the ingredients that will make me pick this one up for another try:

Which Kharkov battles are covered (1st, 2nd, or 3rd)?

Are waypoints added?

How is infantry combat improved over the first game?

Have there been AI improvements made?

Will the original games maps be folded into the new expansion scenario builder?

Thanks.

[benpark]

Also, could we see a closer look at the dug in infantry? Any trenches?

Thanks!

[Mobius]

ORIGINAL: benpark
Also, could we see a closer look at the dug in infantry? Any trenches?

Very first screen has trenches on the right. Though the troops themselves are obscured by the blue selection boxes. Usually two squads can get in a trench.

It's the Kharkov of May 1942. I guess that would be #2.

[Staggerwing]

This may sound like a goofy question but did you remove the camera reference icon from
the minimap? I couldn't make it out in the screenshots. I find it helpfull when playing
OWS as I am quite situational-awareness-challenged [:D]

[Erik Rutins]

General Solomon,

ORIGINAL: general_solomon
just a suggestion. please post some of this in other gamers forums.  dont forget gamespot.com, armchair general, wargamer.com.  to name a few. 
I really like the improvements.  What about infantry and building destruction.

We will be sending out news to all the usual places soon. Consider this a special early preview for forum members, not the entire sum of the promotion plan.

We improved infantry combat in a number of ways. Smoke is now in there, as are on-map light mortars, infantry guns and better sighting rules. Also, infantry combat is resolved a bit better behind the scenes, with squad experience affecting survivability and a general review of various squad ratings and a total review of all in-game point values for better balance.

Building destruction was not possible for this release, alas, but we did add trenches and foxholes, among several other goodies.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
At one time there was talk about increasing the size of the maps. Has this taken place with the Kharkov expansion? It matters because the kilometer-square variety in OWS had the tendency to funnel the fighiting of the battles into the corners, whereupon, play tended to get pretty gamey.

I agree, but unfortunately that wasn't possible for this release. With the increased focus on infantry combat in Kharkov though, the 1km maps do feel a bit more roomy than they did in WS, where they were largely flat and open and filled with tanks.

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl
My concern in this regard isn't born out of any desire to create some kind of monster-game with 52 vehicles per side,

FYI, we did allow you to have more than 52 units per side now - the unit display just dynamically adds a couple of scroll buttons to allow you to view the extra units.

[Erik Rutins]

Hi benpark,

ORIGINAL: benpark
Looks interesting, though I admit the first iteration didn't seem to "take" with me.

Thanks for taking a second look.

Which Kharkov battles are covered (1st, 2nd, or 3rd)?

Second Kharkov - May, 1942. Two full campaigns, one for the Soviet 169th Rifle Division, the second for the German 14th Panzer, plus some additional individual scenarios, not all Kharkov-related.

Are waypoints added?

No, but path-finding was very significantly improved over WS.

How is infantry combat improved over the first game?

See my reply a couple of posts above this one. Smoke, mortars, infantry guns, trenches, foxholes, improved combat formulas, better sighting rules, overhaul/review of points and balance.

Have there been AI improvements made?

Yes, the Kharkov AI is significantly better than the WS AI, especially when on the attack. It's still an AI though, but I think most players will be defeated by it a few times before they learn the ropes.

Will the original games maps be folded into the new expansion scenario builder?

If you own Winterstorm and have it installed, the new game will install updated Winterstorm scenarios that you can play with the updated Kharkov engine. Also, if you have Winterstorm, there will be an offer to get a substantial discount on purchasing Kharkov.

[Erik Rutins]

A few more screenies to keep things going as I'll be out most of tomorrow...

[Erik Rutins]

Soviet campaign...

[Erik Rutins]

Assaulting the German line...

[benpark]

Thanks, Erik. You a true gent. I'll be picking this one up.

[general_solomon]

nice screens eric. appreciate the early previews.  I want to play it now. :O).  so any word on the release.