Interesting comment on why we play this game

[Phil]

I have always had a fasination with "war". As a little boy I would play for hours with my "little people" (My grandmothers name for my hundreds of plastic armymen). Military movies of any kind where always my favorite.
After I served 6 years in a National Guard Mechanized Infantry Unit, I realized a soldiers life was much different than any movie or boyhood fanatsy I had. Still, I have this desire to know how things where done.
True, computer wargames could never touch the actual horrors of war. What appeals to me are wargames ability to simulate the mechanics of battle. Taking the assets at disposal, evaluating its strengths and weaknesses, reconizing the multitude of variables present and acheiving a goal. One poster described SPWAW as a "Chess Game". Another noted it was a "Thinking Man's" Game. Nothing could be truer.
I know several "Computer Gamers". When I try to describe Steel Panthers to them I get just blank looks. I actually had one tell me they could never play it because it was just too realistic. But that is what appeals to me, the realism. In this game, you just can't go in, guns blazing from the hip and take out dozens of enemies with vapor grenades or plasma pistols. You can't type in a cheat code and suddenly be endowed with super power. (Like it or not, fellow SPWAW-ers, we are a minority).
So I guess I said all that to say that the reason I enjoy these types of wargames is the Historical aspects, strategy envolved, and realism.

[kurtbj]

hmmm, hope it doesn't sound too flippant but I've never had any negative thoughts about playing wargames. To me its just a game recreating hisory. My dad taught me to play Chess when I was 4 and then after a couple of years I moved to wargames and any other strategy game I could lay my hand on. To me its simply a challenge to play the game.

I've never had any kind of guilt playing the games. My Mother is German and my Father English, my English grandfather was a merchant navy captain and sailed the atlantic convoys. My German relatives served in the Wehrmacht and the SS. I heard their stories when I was a child and saw how well the two families got on with each other, there was no ill feeling at all.

I understand the hell they went through and realise the real war is no game but then again I realise that the game is not real war.

[campekenobi]

Here's my two cents, and really, only two cents:

I agree with the chess-playing theory (I love chess & strategy), and the other factor is the whole 'boys play with guns' phenomenon. Do children like to play guns because they want to see blood & carnage or satisfy some lethal political agenda? No.

There's some fascination with firepower and explosions that stimulates the senses, but mostly in the realm of FANTASY, versus reality. So when I play Panthers & other war games, I'm just acting out my childhood fantasies of 'playing war', keeping the reality out of the picture, and letting the fantasy stimulate my enjoyment.

One other point I'd like to make is think about the people who watch those medical life-drama shows (personally I hate them). Are they wishing for an accident, or do they love seeing people die? No, but they either have a subconscious fascination/curiosity with death (as 99% of the population does - just look at rubber-necking on highway accidents), or they merely enjoy the ESCAPE from their reality only to be relieved that they are NOT in that situation. I like playing the D-day scenario in first-person shooter games... would I want to be there? Not for a second, of course, but there's a thrill knowing that I can always 'restart' or 'respawn' and life continues.

That's my take.

[Irish]

I would like to add that this a good way to study war and the men who fought. I have a brother who was in Vietnam and my dad was in WWII. Neither one of them have ever talked much about it. (I don't blame them) But having not experienced war first hand, I personally have a desire to understand the odds that the men faced and the sacrifices that were made by the leaders and the men. War is a horrible thing. But at the same time there are things that are worth fighting for. I think of wargaming as a way to give a type of respect for the men who fought. While no wargame can ever show the horrors of war, it can show you the difficult situations our fathers faced and had to overcome. They were great and brave men, all of them.

Thanks,
Irish

[martinmb]

This is one if not the best thread I have ever read! I think all of us have our own stories and thoughts as to how and why we wargame. For me it was a way of understanding what both of my grandfathers and their friends went through. I am glad that it was not me who had to experience what they went through. As that young child I heard those stories and experiences. I did not fully understand the concept of what was being said until I started to expand into this hobby. When I did I met with strong resistance from my parents. They thought, like most everyone, that I was some sort of a warmonger or psycho killer. The issue was finally put to rest when my parents tried to have one of my uncles, really one of my grandfathers friends I say uncle out of respect, to convince me that war was wrong. Which I think it is. However their plan backfired. This particular uncle was in a Japanese POW camp for over 4 years. After he had talked to me and I showed him some of the games that I was playing all he said to my parents was "The kid is learning history and if he doesn't your grandchildren will go through what we went through. In simple words; If man does not learn from his mistakes then he is destined to repeat them."
I have since grown to understand what my uncle meant that day, and although I have never been in the armed forces of any country. I am truly thankful that those men and women are.
Is it morally ok to make or play a game that appears to downplay the fact that real men died? I do not have the right to answer that question. The only people or person who does is the ones who were there, imho, and I received that permission from my uncle.

Thank you

[Capt. Pixel]

My wife - reading this thread over my shoulder - made the following comment:

"I sure don't mind watching a woman on TV give birth, but..."

This was followed by "Get away from me with that thing!!"

[Les_the_Sarge_9_1]

Wasn't sure what sort of response I would get from starting this thread, now I am glad that I did it.

I really have enjoyed all your thoughts guys, and especially have enjoyed hearing how my thread has really impressed some.

I don't have the number crunching analytical prowess of some of our forum mates, so I kinda get left out in the cold when it comes to whether a tiger tank is accurately modelled in 7.1.

But I do enjoy postulating the other aspects of what we are modelling when we discuss our subject matter.

[Bernie]

As many of the other vets in this forum, I too have pondered the reasons behind my interest in this game, and others of its genre. For me, the answer is simply that the two, wargames and war, are two distinctly different beasts. When you're standing behind an M2, and incoming 7.62's are "PANggging" off the steel plate you're not thinking about the "larger" picture...you're thinking about where the muzzle flash is and how fast can you get the area in the sights. Later on, when you have time to get over the shakes, at least a little bit, you cry, scream and curse the "stupid ba*****s" that put you in that position. From the officer who ordered you to be there, to the guy who was stupid enough to think a mud wall would stop a 50 cal while he tried to punch your ticket, to the politicians back home, rightly or wrongly.

Playing a war game though, you become more involved in the bigger picture, the overall objective. You are operating on a different level, as distanced from the the screams, mud and blood as any theatre commander. And, always and finally, you are aware that it is a game. Pixels may bleed and scream on the monitor, but with a click or two they're whole again...and they never feel a thing.

Reality and fantasy, life and a game, it's a matter of perspective and objectivity to me.

[Fallschirmjager]

I have no hope of being as deep as any of the rest of you but Ill try to put something coherent together. For the next few moments ill be as tranparent and frank as I can.


Ive never served and I of course dont know the true horror of war, so this next statment might seem a bit odd. I truly enjoy war. Many ppl ask me why Im entralled with it (I own hundreds of books, videos, DVDs including my prized SS collection of memorabilia). I hope im understood a little bit better on this forum than I am by the general populace. You may wonder why I like it "war is terrible" or you may say "well you like it only because you havnt been in one". While it is true that war is terrible and of course as previously stated I havnt been in one.
Yet their is something about all the energies of 2 nations throwing their young men, sweat, natural resources, time and blood into armed conflict that locks me into its grasp.

So to put it simply the reason I play war games is because I truly like the subject matter. The more knowledge I can asorb and the closer I can get to the experience the more content I become. Wargames are but one of the vehicles that can statisfy my passion, so I guess thats why I enjoy them so.


You can now feel free to pick this apart at your will

[Greg McCarty]

My observations:

Me? I'm a product of my time. Born just a few years after WWII.
My mom was divorced young, then she had lots of boyfriends.
So I had lots of uncles. Many were vets. "Uncle so and so, why do you have that scar on your hand?" "Uncle so and so, why do
you have a dent in your forehead?" "Uncle so and so, whats a
Tin Can, and why were you on one?" (you should have heard the stories) When I was seven, I spent a lot of time in nightclubs. (don't ask) Sometimes they showed films there on Sundays. One such film was a color Naval documentary called "The fighting lady." Some of you know that film well. Imagine the impact on a seven-year-old. By the time I was eight I was reading everything
I could get my hands on concerning the war in the school library.
At nine, I was in a friends garage when we stumbled onto some
molding copies of a Life magazine documentary. In it were vivid
photos of dead Japanese soldiers half buried in the sand on some beach. I remember being a little stunned. This was not how it looked in the "Sgt Rock" comic books. Death was not a familiar concept --just yet. In 1961 I was introduced to my first wargame quite by accident. Avalon Hill's "Tactics II." I wasn't just facinated; this was something for serious study. I was just
a freshman in high-school when I got hold of a copy of Shirer"s "Rise and Fall of the Third Riech." I consumed that tome like a graham cracker, burped once, and looked around hungrily for more. By this time I had a whole closet filled with Avalon Hill titles, and a whole lot of time was spent at the downtown library
researching what I learned from them. I joined a wargaming club and played tournaments by snail-mail using stock market indexes as "dice rolls." At eighteen I had the crackpot idea I wanted to become an Army officer. Before I could make good on that notion, I decided to join the Navy at the height of the Vietnam War. My motivation was to avoid the draft and get an inexpensive education in electronics. I got that, and a whole lot more. While on Guam, I spent time in the hills tracing out the path of the 77th division when they took back the island in 1944.
I found four knocked out M4s, three smashed Amtracks, two Japanese tanks, and more communications wire and more M1 rounds than you could shake a stick at. Later on, while in Tonkin Gulf, I didn't do much of anything except work hard. When I got back home, I spent the next ten years (when I wasn't in tech school, or riding motorcycles) reading things like Sajer's "Forgotten Soldier or Max Hasting's "Overlord." In 1980, I bought my first computer. The forerunners of the games we enjoy today came a few years later. So you see.... I was doomed from the start. (heh heh) Thats my excuse. Now as far as that crap about the evils of wargames. I've listened to that intellectually bankrupt blather from people since 1966. Ignore it. These kinds of people can't even cope with their own lives, let alone the realities of world history. One pattern I've noticed in people that were seriously engaged in this hobby over the years is that no one takes the study of war lightly or frivolously. There's nothing sick about the serious study of military history or the games that simulate it. Our efforts to learn and understand honor all those that lost their lives becoming that history. And we ignore that history at our peril. The euphoric fools that point and make criticizems spend precious time trashing everything and defending little. The words of such jackasses will be forgotten in a generation. In the broad scheme of history their momentary values will last just long enough to be annoying, but what we learn in settings like this will be discussed for centuries.

[antarctic]

Hello All.

It's been very interesting reading about the reasons people play SP:WAW. I wish to add mine.
I once saw this quote "war brings out both the best, and worst in man". I do not enjoy this game because I like the gore and violence of battle, but to celebrate those brave souls, whose mateship, loyalty and courage gave us the freedom many of us enjoy today.
It is to acknowledge the leadership abilities of the NCO's in the armed services. It is to acknowledge the intellect of the generals. It is to acknowledge the brilliant engineers who develope the technology. It is to acknowledge the countless men and women who have strived for the world in which we live today.

Antarctic

[AmmoSgt]

Bernie ..you an old 55D ? I'm a old retired 55G.. Some of us did stuff we really can't talk about , really don't want to talk about ..WW2 was a simplier time in some ways .. some of the best days of my life were the worst days of my life...combat comes in many forms ...not wanting to offend anybody, but I do miss the the squadies and the jargon and the mission orientation..blue lights and red fenders and a high pucker factor are good things in memory ... I don't see it as an "everybody was just serving thier respective countries" I was on the side of freedom and the other guys were on the side of tyranny ..but it all got wrapped up in MAD ..WW2 was simplier in a few ways .. would that my service could have been in that day and age, and I could be a little prouder, and a little more open, about what I came to understand that I was doing. It all worked out in the end the "bad guys" realized what they were doing and the wall came down. Now we are talking about WMD all over again, and everything is politics and messy all over again ....War Games are fairly clean, they have rules, and you can have an actual winning side, thats a nice thought in this day and age. I got into wargames to increase my tactical profiency, I think they did. But what are tactics in an age of politics and total destruction? I don't have any problems with folks that play war games ... it's the ones that think they are morally superior for being ignorant of history or whats involved in making war, in their name, that bother me. I never thought there was much glory in what soliders do, but, by God, there is Glory in the way they do it . "Power to Spare" 59th Ord Bde ( 96th Ord Co , 557th FA/ 99th Ord Det, 294th FA/ 545 Ord Co, 72nd Ord Bn/ and a few tours stateside as an instructor at MMCS Redstone)

[jlaurila]

well this is most interesting topic of them all.

been wondering myself for some time now why i like playing war
games, whats the reason i am so fond of war. havent quite figured it out yet, but i have some ideas where it comes from.

after i served my time in Finnish army, i've been more keen to
wargames than ever before, and war in general.
somehow i tried to get those wibes that my grandfathers generation had to go through
i wear our national symbol as my necklace (the lion stomping a sabre), i've sworn myself, that id die for this country
but still, i am not 'warcrazy' or anything like that, i want peace, i dont want to kill, nor get killed, but i will not run, like few of my mates at work say theyre gonna do, if war would ever arise its dirty face. atleast for the honour of my grandfathers generation.

been playing all kinds of comp. games since C-64, played many sorts of games, but most seem to deal with war, especially wwii
been studying my own emotions now and then, trying to understand why i like those games. maybe its trying to reason and understand war, trying to imagine whats has it been like.
and ever since my respect for people living and fighting 60 years ago has grown quite enormous.

some of you earlier said, that other people accuse you for playing 'realistic' wargames, saying that they'll make you one
trigger happy sob. what i've seen here and subsims forum, people playing war games that intend to be as real as it gets
are most intelligent people, who mostly respect each other.
and its been surprising how little agression i've seen on these boads.
but go to counter strikes or similar's forums. geesh, those guys are nervous trigger happy sobs. theyre the ones creating the idea of games leading to aggression, not us!

nuff'said. my 2c

[kurtbj]

Just wanted to add that I think people who point fingers at Wargame fans are the people with a problem not us. Most of the type of wargames we talk about on this board involve leading units of men where you don't actually see any death/killing etc. Basically we play the role of commanders and generals.
Surely other games like Quake, Doom etc are more bloodthirsty (I don't have anything against first person shooters, I enjoy them too at times). Do other games like Tekken etc cause people to start fights, do empire building games cause people to become megalomaniacs. The majority of people play these games without any crossing between fantasy and reality, there are the odd exceptions but those people probably had problems to begin with.
If someone calls you a warmonger or other such insult then turn around and ask them questions about the war such as "Why did it start?" Why did we become involved?" "Why did so many of our soldiers give their lives?"..... I'd be surprised if they can answer, they are the people with their head stuck up their backside, not us.

Rant over

BTW, this is the best and most intelligent forum I've ever visited and thats why its the only one I keep coming back to.

[Gen.Hoepner]

It's surely a very difficult question to answer,but it's something i think every one who's interested in war has in mind...at least once.
Personally I asked myself many times this question....but cannot find a definitive answer...probably there's not only one ,but a lot of possible answers melting togheder.
First of all....I feel the importance of War as the Dialectic engine of world's history...It's always been like that...for ages.Peace is an Uthopy....War is the reality of Human's nature.We're all genetically addicted to contrast,to envy,to the feeling of having more power in our hands.So war has always been the easiest way to supply these addictions. But there's something more I think.......In my opinion this "more" is rappresented by the appeal of the struggle,with no othersecondary meanings or aims.I do not know how to say it in english....what in italian we call AGONE PITTICO.....wich can be described as the same feeling that pushed the medieval knights to fight during the tournays just to feel the adrenaline of the match.....
But probably these are concepts that can be described by words.... The "Spirit of War"is something which i think lies in every man....our culture,our society,our conscience forces us to hide it,but it will always remains inside us.That's what i think,but it's just an opinion of a guy that never faced the reality of war...so:take it as u'd like.
Thanks

[Irish]

Originally posted by Greg McCarty
My observations:

Now as far as that crap about the evils of wargames. I've listened to that intellectually bankrupt blather from people since 1966. Ignore it. These kinds of people can't even cope with their own lives, let alone the realities of world history. One pattern I've noticed in people that were seriously engaged in this hobby over the years is that no one takes the study of war lightly or frivolously. There's nothing sick about the serious study of military history or the games that simulate it. Our efforts to learn and understand honor all those that lost their lives becoming that history. And we ignore that history at our peril. The euphoric fools that point and make criticizems spend precious time trashing everything and defending little. The words of such jackasses will be forgotten in a generation. In the broad scheme of history their momentary values will last just long enough to be annoying, but what we learn in settings like this will be discussed for centuries.

WELL SAID!!!!!


Irish

[Kanon Fodder]

I've been interested in WWII since I was 9 or 10 years old.
I think it originally game from watching movies (**** Busters, The Longest Day, The Desert Fox, Sink the Bismarck etc. etc.) and the multi-part documentary "The Valiant Years" with my parents.

My Dad served with the British army in Burma, but didn't talk about it a lot. When I was older he showed me some pictures he had saved, including a postcard taken from a dead Japanese soldier. He wasn't sure why he had kept that.

For some reason, despite my British background and having lived almost all of my life in Canada, I am more interested in the German side of the conflict. I almost always prefer playing as German in wargames, and find their equipment much more interesting than the British or American.

This fascination with "the losing side" carries over to my American Civil War preference for the Confederates.

Why a Canadian ex-Brit is so interested in the U.S. Civil War I cannot explain.

My ex-wife figured I was a reincarnated Wermacht soldier (who must have also died in the Civil War)

I play games like SPWaW for the historical accuracy, to try to get a better understanding of the tactical, rather than strategic, side of warfare. Most of my book collection is military history.

There was an interesting piece in The Oregonian a week or so ago where they had 27 questions they asked some local college students to do with history. The average score was 15.
One 23-year-old explained her score saying she "hadn't studied history since high school".

I never went to college.
I graduated from high school almost 31 years ago.

I got 24 out of 27 ...

[martinmb]

Kannon fodder
They may have been on the other side of victory, however the Confederates did it with style and grace. The Germans had more interesting toys(?). Your comment or question as to why you enjoy playing those sides is proof that you wanted to see if you could have done better than the real generals. At least on one hand,and to have fun on the other. The results from the "questionnaire" you posted, as well as your own score, just goes to prove what that uncle of mine said all those many years ago is true. Well done.

[Charles2222]

One 23-year-old explained her score saying she "hadn't studied history since high school".

Delete the s,c, and e, off of that, and you get the real message, "hadn't studied history 'in' high school. Of course taking the word 'history' out of that sentence would probably be even more accurate (hadn't studied in high school).

[Fallschirmjager]

Just coming from high school myself I can yes yet it is mostly students. Yet it is also the insane demands and crap materials they give us and teachers.

The time we have to run through the course of history is very lacking. We cover very little detail and have skim every topic.
The textbooks are also quite terrible. They give biased, sugarcoated and insanly PC views on history that Id rather not read about. I havnt bought any college history text book simply for the fact that they would be a waste of money. I refuse to read history when it comes from the media or textbooks.