neutered PT boats post 1095/1096

[Cap Mandrake]

Put Taffinder in charge of a PT boat flotilla and see what happens

[Canoerebel]

Put Ghormley in charge of your PT boats.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Put Ghormley in charge of your PT boats.

Inspiration 11
Leadership 18
Contrast 15
Saturation 8


Not really his fault. His mother should have pretended to have to wash her hair the first time his future dad called for a date and she discovered his last name.

[freeboy]

Don, Laughed pretty hard on that one !!!PT boats are essentially useless, I have had a perfect night sortie against lightly protected invasion fleet.. seems they do not press in for the torp attacks, not sure what is boerked but also think they where too strong.. just not sure really how they should do, what would WAD look like if we had it tuned in accurately? I think The frustration for many lie not in the game performance per se, but in our EXPECTATIONS, so what should we expect guys? Obviously a cl or a few dd would destroy lite pts, but should aks and aps be attacked on night riads?
I would be very interested to see some documetation for how the paper boats did in the Solomans.. thanks again for helping us out here!

[bradfordkay]

Easy now, guys... are we not allowed to express our feelings on such matters? You guys know that I have nearly always had your back in the "this game is broken!" threads, but I am going to comment when I feel that improvements can be made. To start jumping down our throats because we disagree with a decision that has been made is not productive. Explaining why you feel that this won't be changed is a reasonable response, but to characterize those who have consistently supported you as "whiners" is not helpful...

I explained that I don't consider this to be a big deal, but to see a PT commander avoid combat with an unescorted merchant vessel in the act of unloading seems a little weak to me.

[freeboy]

really weak
But I love the strong Subs!

[Admiral Scott]

What was the range in yards for their torpedos?

How close do they need to get before they launch them?

[Canoerebel]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Easy now, guys... are we not allowed to express our feelings on such matters? You guys know that I have nearly always had your back in the "this game is broken!" threads, but I am going to comment when I feel that improvements can be made. To start jumping down our throats because we disagree with a decision that has been made is not productive. Explaining why you feel that this won't be changed is a reasonable response, but to characterize those who have consistently supported you as "whiners" is not helpful...

I explained that I don't consider this to be a big deal, but to see a PT commander avoid combat with an unescorted merchant vessel in the act of unloading seems a little weak to me.

Brad is exactly right. The only way to spot/detect and fix rough edges if for players to encounter them to speak up.

[freeboy]

It is often times what is percieved due to the limitations on written communication, sometimes seem much different than the person means, that being said we all need to b kind in our words, and yes I am looking at myself. [:-][X(]
Regarding this issue, another tweek

[Admiral Scott]

I would expect very agressive leaders to attack even in daylight if they are attacking unescorted transports.
Less agressive leaders should rarely attack during the day, unless it is in defense of their homeport, or easy pickings.

[AirGriff]

I once read a great book on PT's in the Solomon's called the "Mosquito Fleet". I don't have the book anymore for reference, but I do remember a lot of the big stuff. The PT's rarely, if ever, went out in the day. It was almost exclusively night actions against barges and AKL types. They were very thin skinned, which made them vulnerable to anyone who could fire a rifle, but oddly enough this may have benefited them in that the heavier shells often passed right through. Ever try to sink a plastic milk jug with a bb gun? Besides, the tactics were a stealthy approach (they were pretty quiet when going slow with noise proofed engines, as I recall), then hit them hard and dash away, dash away all. Since it was at night and they were moving fast, they were harder to hit. Not that the barges were easy. The Japanese would put a few barges armed to the teeth in their little groups of barges, and the PT crews feared them. Exciting stuff. Anyway, my experience so far I don't think has been too far off basis, and the fact that the starting example is with only one or two PT's in the daytime seems to go counter to history.

[DarkestHour]

My PT TFs don't fight much anymore but 10 with an aggressive commander placed near Balikpapan put a torpedo into the Akagi after the IJ CV TF was weakly engaged by some SAGs in the area. The light/moderate damage caused the CV TF to retire; Soerabaja would have been a mess otherwise.

[Smeulders]

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Easy now, guys... are we not allowed to express our feelings on such matters? You guys know that I have nearly always had your back in the "this game is broken!" threads, but I am going to comment when I feel that improvements can be made. To start jumping down our throats because we disagree with a decision that has been made is not productive. Explaining why you feel that this won't be changed is a reasonable response, but to characterize those who have consistently supported you as "whiners" is not helpful...

I explained that I don't consider this to be a big deal, but to see a PT commander avoid combat with an unescorted merchant vessel in the act of unloading seems a little weak to me.

Brad is exactly right. The only way to spot/detect and fix rough edges if for players to encounter them to speak up.

Agreed and apologies if anyone thinks I've been too harsh in this thread. However, I don't see anything wrong in the combat reports brought forth in the first post and there isn't enough information (day/night, spotting range) in the example of Brad.

You also have to note that most PT leaders early in the game are seriously lacking in aggresiveness, so even if there are problems there, it's likely due to the commanders and not the game algorithms.

[bradfordkay]

Smeulders... my comment didn't have more information because I am not at home with my game running. It is also because I don't consider this to be a major problem - but it does seem that before the first "fix" the PTs were attacking far too often whereas now they almost never seem to attack. This is probably fine, but in the case of a single unescorted xAK unloading at the PT's base it seems that there should be an attack even in daylight. Even the most timid ensign would most likely consider this to be a godsend for his career - an anchored, unescorted enemy merchant in his own harbor. Thus I feel that the earlier fix may have gone a little too far in the desire to reduce the aggressiveness of PT attacks.

If it doesn't get looked at, I won't be overly disappointed. At least not as much as I was with the initial responses I saw on this thread...

[Admiral Scott]

I totally agree Brad.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
... but in the case of a single unescorted xAK unloading at the PT's base it seems that there should be an attack even in daylight.

I am not so sure about that at all. Was the merchant armed? Anything more than machine guns and - in daylight - it well out-ranged the PT boats weapons, including torpedoes. Maybe a small 'chance' to attack, but not 'should'.

If the encounter happened at short range in daylight (which is plausible in weather or close in-shore), then a better chance. But IIRC, the combat report said 12,000 yards initial contact.

[bradfordkay]

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
... but in the case of a single unescorted xAK unloading at the PT's base it seems that there should be an attack even in daylight.

I am not so sure about that at all. Was the merchant armed? Anything more than machine guns and - in daylight - it well out-ranged the PT boats weapons, including torpedoes. Maybe a small 'chance' to attack, but not 'should'.

If the encounter happened at short range in daylight (which is plausible in weather or close in-shore), then a better chance. But IIRC, the combat report said 12,000 yards initial contact.

Actually, I have yet to post the combat report for that action - as mentioned before I am not at home so I can't open the game. It is possible that the commander of this particular MTB is extremely timid, or that any number of other reasons might exost that the attack didn't occur. I do know that I checked to make sure that still had a torpedo after the turn ran.

[witpqs]

Referring to the one that started the thread.

[Bullwinkle58]

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

What was the range in yards for their torpedos?

How close do they need to get before they launch them?

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/pt/doctrine/index.htm

http://www.pt103.com/PT_Boat_Armament.html

In RL, shooting by eye, with sea state, fog, unknown reefs between you and the target, etc., you'd be dumb to launch outside 1000 yds.

The first URL is the OFFICIAL USN tactical doctrine document for PT boats in the early war. Those claiming that "it just makes sense" that a single boat, in daylight, would charge in on a target from miles away really need to read this document. Forget the movies and read the actual document the skipper would be held to.

[Dixie]

AE dev team in decision that may actually be correct in historical basis shocker! [:D]