Less of a game, more like work

Empires in Arms is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. Empires in Arms is a seven player game of grand strategy set during the Napoleonic period of 1805-1815. The unit scale is corps level with full diplomatic options

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NeverMan
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: borner

Ah pz, I missed you while I was away. seriously though, why can't the game work by simply loading the last file, instead of 18 like neverman says. I have never understood this.

Simple answer: poor coding!

OUCH!
That's it Neverman! You're off my Xmas card list AGAIN! LOL!

FYI...
The files are not cumulative. They are turn files of a certain player. It was designed this way because the original engine design was simultaneous move so it could not be cumulative.

Actually, I kind of like this portion of the "poor" coding since it was flexible enough allow me to change Diplomacy, Economic to simulatenous execution and still keep the IGO UGO format of the move phases BUT that's only my opinion ... what do I know? LOL!





I'm still confused why you can't put all the turns into one file, very confusing.
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wworld7
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by wworld7 »

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
I'm still confused why you can't put all the turns into one file, very confusing.

Nobody can know everything, some concepts are easier to grasp if the building blocks are there. I think much of your frustration comes from, through no fault of your own, a background that allows you to grasp Marshall's explaination. To you, this is a simple question, but the reality (that you fail to grasp) is much more involved. How much time do you want Marshall to take away from working on the game to try to teach you these building blocks so that you can understand?

Many would perfer for Marshall to spend his time plugging away at improving the game. I just can't see taking away from this in order to increase your knowldege so you are not as confused. IMO, it would be a poor ROI for his resources.


Flipper
NeverMan
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by NeverMan »

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: NeverMan
I'm still confused why you can't put all the turns into one file, very confusing.

Nobody can know everything, some concepts are easier to grasp if the building blocks are there. I think much of your frustration comes from, through no fault of your own, a background that allows you to grasp Marshall's explaination. To you, this is a simple question, but the reality (that you fail to grasp) is much more involved. How much time do you want Marshall to take away from working on the game to try to teach you these building blocks so that you can understand?

Many would perfer for Marshall to spend his time plugging away at improving the game. I just can't see taking away from this in order to increase your knowldege so you are not as confused. IMO, it would be a poor ROI for his resources.



I think you misunderstood my point. I'm confused as to why Marshall doesn't just do this not as to why it can't happen.

There really is little difference between loading multiple files or loading one file with multiple turns (one at a time).

Also, fixing this "download 1800 files so you can do your turn" problem would be a HUGE IMPROVEMENT.
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wworld7
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by wworld7 »

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

I think you misunderstood my point. I'm confused as to why Marshall doesn't just do this not as to why it can't happen.

Yes, that is not what I read your frustration to be here. And if you understand, you should be able to understand the answer he gave before Christmas (I think this is in the Borner "November thread" on this topic) as to where he is expending the resources available to this project. I may be wrong, but now I see maybe you grasp this issue but are frustrated since you disagree or didn't like his answer.

For your disappointment (AKA frustration) I am not sure there is a solution. But hey, miracles can happen.
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Skanvak
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by Skanvak »

We already discuss that. It is not so the number of files that is the problem, but that the program cannot load them all at the same time until it reach the player turn.

Best regards

Skanvak
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Marshall Ellis
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by Marshall Ellis »

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

ORIGINAL: NeverMan




Simple answer: poor coding!

OUCH!
That's it Neverman! You're off my Xmas card list AGAIN! LOL!

FYI...
The files are not cumulative. They are turn files of a certain player. It was designed this way because the original engine design was simultaneous move so it could not be cumulative.

Actually, I kind of like this portion of the "poor" coding since it was flexible enough allow me to change Diplomacy, Economic to simulatenous execution and still keep the IGO UGO format of the move phases BUT that's only my opinion ... what do I know? LOL!





I'm still confused why you can't put all the turns into one file, very confusing.

Again ... ;-)

The original design was simultaneous execution. In this mode, you cannot have someone else's turn since the assumption is that he is moving at the same time. If two nations create turn files at the same time then how could you fold one turn into the other's file?



Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


NeverMan
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by NeverMan »

I'm not talking about simul. The game, currently, has no simul action, it's entirely sequential so I'm not sure what you mean!?
Grognot
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by Grognot »

But what you *do* have is a loader that can interpret individual files (which at least at one point, appeared to contain direct dumps of data structures pertaining to global game state instead of deltas, judging from the sheer number of zero bytes as well as the contents of the non-zero bytes -- I have not bothered to examine recent data, so this might have changed), so you can write a loader which interprets a header specifying the organization of multi-section file (number of sections, type of each section, length) and then chains to the previous loader for each individual section (for a straightforwards approach). Given that much of the game is *not* simultaneous-phase, this would not be a significant departure provided that your software architecture hides the details of the I/O from the data model and logic components.

The slightly tricky bit is to determine which files to package, since each subsequent phasing player needs a slightly different view. One possible approach is to eliminate leading sections that originated from the next phasing player, because there's no sense passing him data that he himself generated (but he does need updates from subsequent play).

For simultaneous play, if you use the obvious N-way distribution instead of sequential you can at least have the loader be set to load all files matching the expected pattern in whatever order you desire, and to balk entirely if the full set has not been received yet -- the player is not likely to want to put these files in different directories or to rename them just to spite you, and if he does, it's his own fault. This should work provided a flag of some kind notifies all players that a given phase will, in fact, be simultaneous rather than sequential.

The obvious elephant in the room is how in a game with hidden information you can have both rules enforcement *and* fog of war, but moving to a dedicated-trusted-host system w/ decent public-key encryption for both tamper-resistance and privacy is not something I'd personally prioritize for a game with this many file exchanges and this low a fan base, especially compared to resolving outstanding major or blocker bugs.

And actually I wouldn't prioritize e-mail within the program itself, or necessarily even the above changes re: packaging files, because there are a large number of (free, even) shared-folder services which let everybody stay in synch in the background and thus minimize user-visible transfer time (at least, if there computers are powered and networked prior to playing EiANW). Thus, there are already available solutions for easing the file transfer. The file loading after these transfers may be slightly obnoxious, but that's merely *obnoxious*, not potentially game-breaking like, say, http://eiamantis.babel.com.au/view.php?id=639; or rules deviations that would be nice to revert (like being able to add components to political combinations, or conceivably the original rules regarding where you can place minor factors during reinforcement phase -- right now, I can transport a stack of barely-filled minor corps and then reinforce them on arrival without being able to trace supply to the minors themselves, which is somewhat weird and possibly abusive, and significantly weakens the impact of depot limitations).
--
Not a grognard.
Not an optimizer. It's a game to me, not a job.
NeverMan
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by NeverMan »

Grognot, thank you for taking the time, I surely did not want to.
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Grapeshot Bob
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by Grapeshot Bob »

Hi again,

I'm checking in for my semi yearly sniff at the moribund mess that is Empires in Arms.

Is this sucker firing on all cylenders yet or are we still beta testing?


All the best,

GSB
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borner
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by borner »

better than 6 months ago, that is for sure. Probably graduated from Beta to pre-release quality now. AI is still hopeless, sending single corps all over the map to get smashed, but most of the bug bugs seem to be under control.
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Grapeshot Bob
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by Grapeshot Bob »

Any luck with the AI yet?
 
Still navel gazing in Prague while Paris burns?
 
 
GSB
NeverMan
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by NeverMan »

Yes, the AI still sucks very badly... but then it hasn't really been worked on since you last asked.... I believe that Marshall is trying to finish up some touches with 1.08 and he spent most of the time trying to kill Mantis and the simul PBEM.
 
I also believe that AI is next on the roadmap, so maybe not too much longer!?
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Marshall Ellis
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RE: Less of a game, more like work

Post by Marshall Ellis »

Neverman is correct. The AI has not been messed with in a while. That will be the focus of 1.09
Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games


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