Waiting to buy and future patches

[SuluSea]

Heck man, the road to scenarios are a blast. I'm with the buy it now crowd so when the first winter fix patch comes out you'll be able to dive right in.

[Blind Sniper]

I generally have become more careful with my game purchases and this game is also relatively expensive.  I tend to assume, from past experience with some other games, that development will halt prematurely, in the majority of player sentiment, and development effort goes on to new games for 'economic' reasons.

I think you are right but this game is not a normal game, WitE will be another milestone of the history of pc wargame.
About your development concern I would say that WitP AE forum is a good guarantee [:)]

[Commanderski]

Don't buy it!..You won't have any free time left. You'll complain to your boss at work that the Commanders Report is missing and they won't understand...[:)]

Actually you should buy it as soon as you can afford it. This is the first Matrix game I bought and won't be the last. WITE is a fantastic game with lot's of options on the battlefield, even with the few problems they have.

[marty_01]

If the kids are starving and you can’t afford shoes for um'...than I'd say you have better things to throw money at. But if you like operational level Eastern Front wargames and have $80 or $90 worth of disposable income, than I'd go ahead and take the plunge. From what I've seen thus far, it’s a great game...good fun.

[WilliePete]

ORIGINAL: entwood

I am sure there are others like myself

There are 2 reasons to not buy a desired game when first released;
A) Wait for patches which are almost always going to happen (at least a few times depending on game and company)
B) Price comes down (not expecting here)
In both cases, the customer benefits except for having to wait.

I almost clicked buy a few times in the last few days but I see a lot of 'stuff'; Winter '41 and other that is making me still hesitate. Is there any news about content and estimate of when a new patch will happen? If the next patch is big stuff and soon I would wait. If it will be 6 months wait then maybe buy now and just live with issues and have a bit of fun.

I understand how you feel as it is a bit of an investment because of the high price tag. However, you are doing yourself a disservice by waiting. Winter 41' is not a game breaker, especially if you are playing against the AI. You can also skip it entirely by playing from the 1942 scenario on. I spend hours, even days sometimes just planning certain turns. I also get lost checking things like my OOBs, production, and commanders reports. The game is so massive that there are all kinds of things to do and check that you will never get bored. If this is your type of game, then you are wasting game time and will kick youself whenever you do get it because you waited too long on the fence!

[Wild]

This game is already a masterpiece, and will get even better. BUY!!!

[freeboy]

As someone who has been involved with the devs as a tester and a player, and own numerous matrix titles... Gary G games never ever seem to stop developing..! Especially the larger ones...
This game is a finished product that either player can win in a 2 player game.. lots of adjustable parts... editor..
and its HUGE!
So, what exactly are yo looking for? If it is an emersive game with a ton of replay in this time frame this is a winner.. again.. it is not for those who want to play a game in under 10 hours! lol
 

[entwood]

I liked the fast beta's coming out; now has slowed down; either the game requires less changes now (logical) or more time is needed for tougher issues to fix (concern) ...I was hoping for a new Beta soon....You see, if I am going to take hours a turn or major time playing...as a previous poster said, I would like less issues in the game to make that time investment the most worthwhile, but yes I can see buying now to get to that learning curve.

V1.03 Beta 6 – February 20, 2011
V1.03 Beta 5 – February 14, 2011
V1.03 Beta 4 – February 11, 2011
V1.03 Beta 3 – February 7, 2011
V1.03 Beta 2 – January 21, 2011
V1.03 Beta 1 – January 12, 2011

I love war-games.  I am an old board war-gamer; back to the old Avalon Hill and SPI days (even won a tournament at a convention; lol), then the Atomic PC Games (Crusader, Stalingrad); plus Total War stuff.

I am getting tired of myself being pusillanimous. What are people buying anyway? the just-download edition or it might be nice to get the boxed edition for 10 more?

[Joel Billings]

The betas have slowed because we want to make a change for first winter before we release the next beta, and we needed to fix a few bugs before we could get there. Then we have to allow at least a little testing before release. We think we've got the bugs fixed that we needed, so we are now discussing what winter changes to make this weekend. Here's the list of changes we already have in for the next beta to show things are still moving forward:

V1.04 Beta 1
• New Features and Rule Changes
1. New Rule - Damaged equipment and manpower returned to the pool during the logistics phase is not available to be used as replacements until the next supply phase. This represents the lost time from the front of lightly wounded soldiers and damaged equipment.
2. New Rule - Units from different Luftflotte’s or Air Armies will not participate in the same air mission.
3. Rule Change – The amount of support units can get be increased by the level of fortification in the defending hex.
4. Rule Change - Introduced the concept of a commanding HQ for each side for each combat. Generally this commanding HQ is selected because it has the most CVs directly reporting to it in the battle. Units not reporting directly to the commanding HQ will suffer command battle modifiers that will reduce their CV for the battle. The battle report now lists the units in the battle grouped under the name of the HQ they report to. If an HQ’s units are suffering a command battle modifier, the amount of the CV reduction is shown next to the name of the HQ (for example XXIV Panzer Corps -36% indicates that each unit listed in this corps has had its CV reduced by 36%). The greater the number of HQ’s that the unit must trace through to reach the commanding HQ, the greater the modifier. In addition, units that report directly to a high command HQ suffer an additional 20% modifier, and those that report directly to an Army Group or Front suffer an additional 10% modifier (these are shown as part of the total modifier percentage displayed).
5. Multiplayer Change - Added 'Resign' option to the games list.
6. Multiplayer Change - Added 'Show Completed' and 'Show Resigned' buttons to the games screen to allow filtering of the game list
7. Multiplayer Change - Added 'hover' text to the games and challenges lists to display additional information about games.
8. Multiplayer Change – Now when an attempt to save the game fails, the user will be informed of this event and given the opportunity to try again.
9. Formula Changes - Reduced the effectiveness of interdiction in terms of casualties caused. Increased the chance that interdiction will cause movement point reduction to the interdicted unit.
10. Formula Change - Decreased the morale reduction for air groups.
11. Formula Change - Air strikes are more fragmented now depending on experience and leader checks.
12. Formula Change – Reduced the amount of planes flying recon interception missions.
13. Formula Change - Artillery (ART,MORT,ROCKET,AT) support units have priority to be committed into a battle.
14. Interface Change - Added AA units directly attached to cities to the OOB display.
15. Interface Change – Added turn, date and location information to the battle reports.
16. Interface Change - Units that are already assigned to an HQ will not appear on that HQ’s list on the Pick Support Unit Window when the Assign/Form button has been selected.
17. New Message - Added a message to the event log when an empty unit is disbanded.
18. New Editor Feature - Added COPY/CLEAR functions to the TOE(OB) editor.

• Bug Fixes
1. Fixed a bug causing incorrect numbers being shown in the number of men moving to and from the pool in the Event Log.
2. Fixed a bug causing some withdrawing units to incorrectly place their equipment and manpower in the pool.
3. Fixed a bug where Axis units could ignore the TOE% settings during the first winter.
4. Fixed a bug in the truck loss routine that was adding manpower to the pool when trucks were damaged.
5. Made sure that the CR and OOB screen numbers agree. There were some discrepancies that could cause the two to disagree.
6. Fixed bugs that caused the AI to sometimes move support units to off-map/delayed HQs and “inactive” support units to on map HQs.
7. Fixed a bug that caused units moving by naval transport to get stuck in a water hex when it was interdicted.
8. Fixed a bug in which small factories could report different amount of equipment built than those that actually went to the pool.
9. Fixed combat so odds may no longer be shown as 0:0.
10. Fixed a bug that could cause routed tank divisions to not correctly transform to delayed tank brigades.
11. Fixed a problem in which the disband routine was not bringing some damaged equipment back to the pool.
12. Fixed a bug where inactive support units were passing through the upgrade/swap ground types procedure, placing and taking equipment to/from the pool.
13. Fixed a bug where the number of partisan cadres formed was incorrect.
14. Fixed a bug that was causing ports to be repaired too quickly.
15. Fixed a bug in the path tracing that could prevent defending units to receive support units help in a battle.
16. Fixed a bug that caused a unit to not be able to trace a movement path through a hex with 3 friendly units.
17. Fixed a bug where a guards unit was created with the same name as that of an existing guards unit.
18. Fixed a bug causing manpower loss/gain when escaped squads convert to partisans.
19. Fixed a bug in the Set All Unit MPs function in the editor that doesn't set MP for the Axis units correctly on June 22 1941.
20. Fixed Motorcycles Squads so they are set to infantry class instead of artillery class.
21. Fixed Heavy Infantry Guns so they are set to artillery class instead of infantry class.
22. Fixed a bug where Artillery Regiments had the option to assign another support unit to them, something that should never happen.
23. Fixed a bug where damaged elements were not having their manpower sent to the pool when due to an OB change the elements were no longer needed (the manpower was just being lost).
24. Fixed a bug where elements that were being exchanged due to a TOE change or upgrade were not properly accounting for the difference in manpower between the old and new elements.
25. Fixed a bug that could cause inaccurate record keeping of manpower lost from retreat attrition.
26. Fixed a bug that could prevent a totally empty Soviet or German unit removed from the map from being brought back on the map to be rebuilt.
27. Fixed a bug where ground elements which had an upgrade path set to 0 (instead of to themselves) could have some of their elements incorrectly sent back to the pool.

• Data and Scenario Changes
1. Small adjustments of Heavy Panzer Battalions for correct OBs for arrival dates
2. Moved the 653rd and 654th Heavy Panzerjager Battalions arrival date to 3 Jun 43
3. Changed the Soviet 1st BAK Commander to Izotov in all 1941 scenarios
4. Adjusted Operation Blue's Victory Points to make a German decisive victory a little easier. Stalingrad is now worth 300 VPs to the Germans at the end of the scenario (was 200). Soviet VPs for Baku is now worth 200 (was 300).
5. Fixed Soviet overstack in 1943 Campaign at 85,24
6. Ernst Leyser put as commander of XXVI Corps in 1943 Campaign
7. Ran SET ALL CITY SUPPLY REQUIREMENTS in all non-campaign scenarios
8. Updated leader file with corrections to German names

[LST Express]

Matrix has saved me a ton of money since 2005. I own AE and WITE and haven't bought a game from another company since 2007. I trust Matrix, enjoy the games and appreciate the support. Buy the game and enjoy it and this great community!

[Uxbridge]

A very nice list, Joe. I especially like rule change 4 and formula change 9.

Good luck with the blizzard issue.

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
This is Matrix Games and 2by3 we are talking about. I don't think I have purchased a game from any other game companies since I joined.
Look at War in the Pacific, been out for years now and still has active support.

Eh? 2by3 stopped supporting WITP even without fixing some major bugs. WITP (in the form of AE) is now supported by Henderson Field. Anyway, bottom line is that you still get support for a very long time for these games from Matrix. But there is still the danger of any game stopping development before it's prime and no one can deny that. But people having faith in a game can guarantee its longevity by parting with their money for further development.

As for WITE, even without the patches, I already enjoyed version 1.00 from the get go. It's just those vocal historian/grognards who are complaining a lot. But things are still changing for the better.

[wworld7]

ORIGINAL: jomni

ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
This is Matrix Games and 2by3 we are talking about. I don't think I have purchased a game from any other game companies since I joined.
Look at War in the Pacific, been out for years now and still has active support.

Eh? 2by3 stopped supporting WITP even without fixing some major bugs. WITP (in the form of AE) is now supported by Henderson Field. Anyway, bottom line is that you still get support for a very long time for these games from Matrix. But there is still the danger of any game stopping development before it's prime and no one can deny that. But people having faith in a game can guarantee its longevity by parting with their money for further development.

As for WITE, even without the patches, I already enjoyed version 1.00 from the get go. It's just those vocal historian/grognards who are complaining a lot. But things are still changing for the better.

iirc, Henderson Field Designs produced WITP-AE (with some assistance from Matrix & 2by3) and yes, they are the ones that support it. 2by3 supported WITP for a number of years. The original plan was to go back and retro-fit some of the AE features back into WITP. Sadly, a corporate choice was made to not complete these additions. Priorities change, that happens in all industries. All in all, I can't complain about the length of support for any of these products. Nothing lasts forever...

[berthier]

Well I've bought a lot of games from Matrix and many of them have been played to death for a week or two then never touched again. This is not one of them.

This is a very very good computer game. If you are waiting for the perfect game you would never buy anything, they don't exist. It's not unlike waiting for the perfect iphone, laptop or any other new device. There are ALWAYS going to be improvments, but that dosen't mean the original is any way inadequate. I've said this in another post that if you buy it and don't like it, you are going to get very good prices for it on ebay because people are going to climb over each other to get this at any discount.

The only issue with the game, and that one is still being debated hotly is the first winter effects. Nothing else in the game has been a major point of contention in terms of game play, apart from some historical debates about the stacking rules. The first winter is tough, big deal! The rest of the game is so good you could play it for years. I'm hundreds of hours in and I haven't even played 2/3 of the scenarios. I'm on my fourth campaign as the Axis trying to get a "perfect" first six months. You really would be hard pressed to get better entertainment value for $

[Reconvet]

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

Because even another year of waiting is no real problem

I foresee you having a major problem if you really wait another year: After a few play turns you'll definitly be quite angry with yourself why the heck you waited so long...

It really is a peace of software which will absorb you to a degree that it will save you a lot of money you won't invest in other spare time activities. I see no parallel with the return on investment you get with this product. At least if you have a minimal interest in strategy games.

There are some issues which bother me too, but I'm having great fun with the game as it is now and I have no doubt that the responsible team will continue their well earned reputation of high quality product service. This pretty child is growing up to be a beauty that won't let you turn your head until it's unborn sibling sees the light of this world.

[Adnan Meshuggi]

ORIGINAL: Reconvet

ORIGINAL: Adnan Meshuggi

Because even another year of waiting is no real problem

I foresee you having a major problem if you really wait another year: After a few play turns you'll definitly be quite angry with yourself why the heck you waited so long...

It really is a peace of software which will absorb you to a degree that it will save you a lot of money you won't invest in other spare time activities. I see no parallel with the return on investment you get with this product. At least if you have a minimal interest in strategy games.

There are some issues which bother me too, but I'm having great fun with the game as it is now and I have no doubt that the responsible team will continue their well earned reputation of high quality product service. This pretty child is growing up to be a beauty that won't let you turn your head until it's unborn sibling sees the light of this world.

Hi, maybe.
But to be honest my time for playing such (good) games is rare... i played soley witp, then witp ae... in the moment i stopped cause a bug i would call "pilots replacement bug".... it is not the pilot bug with vanishing pilots, you just can´t fill your rows (even if your replacement pool is full).

So i would buy the game (like UV, WITP, WITP AE) and play it. But it is to frustrating, if the most important campagin (for me) is in the moment not playable (i still have high hopes, even if the illsuited comments about new rules let me think that the game has also some problems with the developers) and even more, that the troubles are hardcoded.

I dislike the idea to make a fantasy-scenario to give the axis so much new toys (cause i am also interested in playing the russians, my time is to short to try-and-error and find out that the game i played is ruined by "10.000 Tiger-Bug".)
I am really old now (above 40) and with kids, hard work (even if i can write some posts, i am account manager for telecommunication and work around 60-65 hours the week) i have just some time. So i am interested that the game will be better and if i, no when i buy the game i can play at last the gc41-scenario

The costs are low, i think the game (solving its big problem) is worth even the double price (but don´t tell it the developers [:D]), so many hours you play....

[Hagleboz]

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge

A very nice list, Joe. I especially like rule change 4 and formula change 9.

Good luck with the blizzard issue.

Those were the two that caught my attention as well.

The interdiction fix is exactly what I would have asked for and I think that the disruption to movement will add a lot to each turn's suspense. It will force players to incorporate a little flexibility into their planning as things might not go exactly as they expected. Players will also have to focus more on ensuring distribution of proper anti-air assets to their forces. No more disbanding of AAA battalions for one thing.

My one worry. The disruption to units should correlate to the size and power of the interdiction though. I have seen flights of 10-20 planes kill 1000+ soldiers. I hope that the same does not occur with disruption. I have noticed in my experience that mobile divisions seem to be the most vulnerable to interdictions and I don't want to see them routinely lose 1/3+ of their weekly movement to an attack of 20 planes or less (especially in 41). In some cases that might be worse than losing 1500 men!

Each new beta release is like a mini Christmas, I can't wait to see what it does to gameplay. Thanks for the continued support.[&o]

[bednarre]

How does one become an official playtester? Do you have to be an "expert" to join? What exactly do the playtesters do?

[Ketza]

I am certainly finding interdiction is playing a much greater role then before. Its actually thwarted several of my glorious moves...

[entwood]

OK, As this is a thread I started for the "reluctant" purchaser, I am pleased to report that I have made my purchase. 

Big deal, one more person bought the game, but no doubt, some of the honest, plentiful, and generous replies in this thread, plus appreciating what I perceive and read from Joel and Pavel "diving into trenches with the customers" (instead of boiler-plate official statements)  aided in my decision; plus my own thinking, so now I am a proud owner.   I figure the time it takes to learn will put any serious play I do into the next 1 or maybe even 2 patches, which suits me just fine. The purchase and upgrade to 1.03 went smooth.

Thank you to all who provided information.   I hope I will marvel at, enjoy, and be challenged by this game for some time to come and that development work continues to "clean any specs of dirt from a Mona Lisa".   Buying this product took some careful consideration on my part, as well it should. It is a very expensive game, but I think the community has done a nice job of welcoming a "Doubting Thomas" with honesty. Thanks again, and I hope this thread can be used to continue any inquiries by other potential customers.