Operation Veritable WIP

[Phoenix100]

Huib - sorry to stray off the thread topic a little - but have you any plans to adapt Woensdrecht for the new patches? I think it's a really fantastic scenario, one of the best I've played, for all the reasons I've mentioned before.

[Huib]

ORIGINAL: phoenix

Huib - sorry to stray off the thread topic a little - but have you any plans to adapt Woensdrecht for the new patches? I think it's a really fantastic scenario, one of the best I've played, for all the reasons I've mentioned before.

I should do that. I have to dive into that though. I've been working mostly for the JTCS games last year.

[RangerX3X]

Great project - mega kudos.

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: Huib

If you need info about this battle, I know ridiculously much about it, especially about the German FJ divisions there.
I have made Veritable for JTCS game (not released the scn yet), so I have a full OOB info if you need it.
Have WW2 era topo maps of it as well.

edit: see that you're from Germany. I also have some good German books on the subject. Heinz Bosch, Ulrich Dinkelaker, Guderian to name a few.
Feel free to contact me about it.


Huib

Thanks Huib! [:)] You´ll hear from me soon. My latest book just arrived, which is Heinz Gunther Guderians, Das letzte Kriegsjahr im Westen (history of the 116. Pz. Division). It has a wealth of detailed info re german units participating, but there are 2-3 odd german parachute units I can´t find the details I need. Would be:

Fallschirm Armee Waffen Schule (a reinforced Btl. type unit of likely mixed weapons), attached to 116. Pz

Korps Fallschirm Aufklarungs Btl. 12 (a Btl size para reccon unit of II. Fallschirm Korps), attached to 116. Pz

And...Hubners Fallschirm Armee Sturm Btl, likely a special assault unit at army level.

[Huib]

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry



Thanks Huib! [:)] You´ll hear from me soon. My latest book just arrived, which is Heinz Gunther Guderians, Das letzte Kriegsjahr im Westen (history of the 116. Pz. Division). It has a wealth of detailed info re german units participating, but there are 2-3 odd german parachute units I can´t find the details I need. Would be:

Fallschirm Armee Waffen Schule (a reinforced Btl. type unit of likely mixed weapons), attached to 116. Pz

Korps Fallschirm Aufklarungs Btl. 12 (a Btl size para reccon unit of II. Fallschirm Korps), attached to 116. Pz

And...Hubners Fallschirm Armee Sturm Btl, likely a special assault unit at army level.

That's cool. Personally I'm very interested in this battle, but also in Blockbuster and the battles on the other side of the Rhein (Varsity & Plunder) and the later battles all the way to the end. Guderian is very useful.
I even have an original small document from Hubner (Cmdr FJR 24, not the Hubner of the Sturm Bn) himself that he wrote in the sixties, together with a map with his drawings on it.
Send me a pm with your email and I'll look what I can have on these units (I should have some as I stumbled on the same questions you are facing). From most units I also know where they were at a given time (not from my head ofcourse). The FJRs were shifted around the front quite a bit.

Huib

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: Huib

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry



Thanks Huib! [:)] You´ll hear from me soon. My latest book just arrived, which is Heinz Gunther Guderians, Das letzte Kriegsjahr im Westen (history of the 116. Pz. Division). It has a wealth of detailed info re german units participating, but there are 2-3 odd german parachute units I can´t find the details I need. Would be:

Fallschirm Armee Waffen Schule (a reinforced Btl. type unit of likely mixed weapons), attached to 116. Pz

Korps Fallschirm Aufklarungs Btl. 12 (a Btl size para reccon unit of II. Fallschirm Korps), attached to 116. Pz

And...Hubners Fallschirm Armee Sturm Btl, likely a special assault unit at army level.

That's cool. Personally I'm very interested in this battle, but also in Blockbuster and the battles on the other side of the Rhein (Varsity & Plunder) and the later battles all the way to the end. Guderian is very useful.
I even have an original small document from Hubner (Cmdr FJR 24, not the Hubner of the Sturm Bn) himself that he wrote in the sixties, together with a map with his drawings on it.
Send me a pm with your email and I'll look what I can have on these units (I should have some as I stumbled on the same questions you are facing). From most units I also know where they were at a given time (not from my head ofcourse). The FJRs were shifted around the front quite a bit.

Huib

Going to send you PM! [8D]

Blockbuster, as part of Veritable is on my to do list already.[:)] I´ll finish this mini OP of the Moyland battle area and then expand to the full map overtime. I´ll likely leave out the flooded area, which can´t be played in BftB, but otherwise I need the northern part for the german Arty setup, or parts of it.[X(]

OP Veritable is surely not the best background for the BftB game engine, thus although interesting, Plunder/Varsity will lead to some more difficulties, unless just the Varsity stage of the battle is started with. BftB definitely needs some naval mode added to it, to allow some amphibious warfare.

Other interesting OPs could be Black Cock, Overloon and the Peel Marsh counter attack. We´ll see. If you like to cooperate on some of the stuff, let me know.[:)]

[RockinHarry]

quick update: I´m in the mids of OOB and particular involved units research and have about 70% of force lists completed so far. Next comes enlarging the initial map to ~12x10km, as I found the 7x7km map way to small to get a resonable artillery setup and supply net working.[8|]

[JeffroK]

Good to see this continuing, IMVHO there are a lot of actions fought by the British 2nd Army which have been lost behind the Bulge & Market Garden.

It would be good to see some more.

[RockinHarry]

FYI: Got back working on it after a looong pause. [X(] Since covering the whole operation is impossible, I´ll focus on 1-3 day engagements, corps size max. For those particulary interested in OP Veritable, I´m open for suggestions. [;)]

So far, the map only covers parts of the left flank Brit actions (between Cleve city and Goch-Calcar road) in mid february, but either I´ll expand, or make new maps covering other parts as well.[:)]

[wodin]

Harry, any chance you can do smaller battles but over say three days? They are my favourite type of scenarios..I think Pheonix said he is starting to prefer them aswell..less units but over a decent amount of time..

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Harry, any chance you can do smaller battles but over say three days? They are my favourite type of scenarios..I think Pheonix said he is starting to prefer them aswell..less units but over a decent amount of time..

Yep, that´s what I have in mind. At least I´ll try some divisonal or regimental sized battles. Attack on "Veen" town could be one, or some actions of the 8th RTB. There´s a whole lot to choose from...[X(]

[wodin]

Regiment would be cool...over three or foru days..or Divisional but using reinforcements to build it up, say again over 4 days or so. You really see how the game works then more so than seeing a mass of counters all over the map.

[RockinHarry]

Here´s btw the main sources I dig from:

"The Victory Campaign - Volume III" (ebook)
Whitakers "Rhineland"
Thompsons "The battle for the Rhineland"
Guderians "History of the 116. Panzer (Greyhound) Divison"
Ritgens "History of the Panzer Lehr Division in the West 1944-45"
Stimpels "The german paratroop forces 1942-45"
A divisonal History of the 51 Highland Division (where do I have it right now [X(] )
stuff from the CMHI site and loads more, mostly ebook format.

I also do have some useful maps from the 1940ies era, so that shouldn´t be a major problem either.

We´ll see....

[madorosh]

I have a large number of Canadian regimental histories, many with maps of varying degrees of usefullness, that may be of assistance.

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: Michael Dorosh

I have a large number of Canadian regimental histories, many with maps of varying degrees of usefullness, that may be of assistance.

Thanks for the offer, Michael![:)] I´m particularly interested in operations of the 3rd CAN ID, 4th CAN Tank and associated corps/army units. My plans include making operations for the battles of Moyland Woods, Goch - Calcar Road, Hochwald layback and Veen.

So far my sources provide me all of the basics necessary, but I´ll let you know, if I need more detailed stuff.[:)]

Very much like your canadian soldiers website. Referenced much to it the past years. [8D]

Btw, your sig has a dead link!

cheers

[RockinHarry]

What I´ll likely need, is particular "shape" of canadian units involved, when it comes to game unit data, like experience, training, morale and the like. Also I´m interested in leader data, down to company scale.

So far I know the canucks where pretty tough and professional guys, but also had some manpower problems at that time of war. So how to factor all that into game unit data?

I want stats as close as possible to reality and currently I´m less concerned with "balancing".

[RockinHarry]

After lots of tweaking, particularly terrain data, objective setting and both sides leader/unit stats I´m now approaching a battle style that fairly well resembles the rather sticky nature of the events that took place during Operation Veritable.[8D]

Still some problems to solve, but I´m fairly confident that I get it worked out for the prototype battle soon. If that happened, I´ll finally start on actual mission making.[:)]

Btw, I also did a number of map graphics modding, i.e introducing "rubble" terrain for large bombed out cities. They block vehicular movement and provide benefits for defending infantry.

I also reversed the height layer color scheme. It´s now dark color = low lying terrain to lighter colors for higher terrain ones. That´s a personal preference and also coincides with the height map color codeing as shown in the map editor.

[RockinHarry]

ORIGINAL: wodin

Regiment would be cool...over three or foru days..or Divisional but using reinforcements to build it up, say again over 4 days or so. You really see how the game works then more so than seeing a mass of counters all over the map.

Think this is more of a map making issue. Since there´s no off map artillery in the game, maps need to be very wide to provide space for artillery (and base) deployments. I´d ecpect to add 4-8 extra km left/right (or up/down)from the MLR to yield that.

Assuming a regimental size attack sector of between 3 to 5km max, a general deployment area for both sides forces of say...2 km depth, would demand a map size of about 3x15 to 5x20km minimum.

Edit: The BFTB Butgenbach map, would be a good example (it´s 6x16 km, divisional sized). Cut it down to about 3-5 km height and you´ve a regimental sized map, assuming units involved are framed by friendlies outside the map area. That would be the rule of thump, so to say, but off course depends upon particular battle to be simulated. I.e a regimental sized german kampfgruppe in russia, with exploitation mission, could be played on way larger maps. On the western front 1944/45, mostly the US would see deep exploitation type missions, with task force size forces.

[wodin]

COTA is my standard for smaller amount of units but over a few days scenarios..some great ones based on the Crete Map.

[RockinHarry]

Thread can be closed. OP Veritable is abandoned.

Edit: ..stuck in the mud (like the real OP), is a better say ATM. [X(]