help with SEPs

[Phoenix100]

No combat situations I saw. The base was probably bombarded a few times.

I note well everything you say about where to place the Base though (basically, near to the drawing units), but I assume it is then crucial to keep an absolutely clear corridor between the SEP and the base as - again, I assume - every time I get these messages where 100% of the column didn't get through to the base or the drawing units, that represents a column that's lost some of its trucks, no? Otherwise, when else does it lose the trucks? Am I right that the supplies get from the SEP to the base using the base's trucks (not some unseen trucks attached to the SEP itself)? If so, in scenarios like this, with long supply lines (especially if you don't move the original SEPs, as I have) and long duration then it really is a nightmare to assume a regiment can keep going with, basically, 25 jeeps to supply it, which have to constantly run long gauntlets of attrition, either from the SEP to the base, or base to regiment.

[Lieste]

Yep. Each 100% loss probably represents a single vehicle or two... and if you are supporting 17 units on the wrong side of "the gap" you will quickly see 17 lost supply (often on the way home, rather than out ~ supply seems to turn back more often on the way out, but die *if* successful on the way back though YMMV)... As often supply requests are 'emergency supply' they will happen during daylight, when chances of getting caught are relatively high...
The single larger column tends to show smaller casualty 'rates' 25% implies at least 4 vehicles (or 2 vehicles and 4 men possibly). But a 25 % casualty rate from a 20 truck column is 5 vehicles... However, so long as the base has 'some' supply reserve it won't as often be doing 'emergency' runs to the SEP, and can take advantage of the safer 'night' runs. It is beneficial to *know* where the enemy forces are prior to dusk (to seed the avoidance routes correctly) or to definitely *HOLD* the shortest road route open, but with no visibility it isn't required to also keep it out of direct LOS.

[Phoenix100]

I shall tamper with the SEPs a little more, I think, with all this in mind.

Thanks Lieste. Very much appreciated.

[Lieste]

So: As far as is practical ~ The Division Base, Artillery stay close together, protected, near the SEP but within the Division perimeter (and may need to displace away from the SEP if the planned perimeter won't encompass the SEP to the end... this displacement better done once, near the middle or earlier, rather than continually and late.

The supply route(s) to the Regt Bases should be kept as simple, straight and clear as feasible, though routes protected from observation are less important (few (big) runs made in hours of darkness).

The Regt bases need to have covered lines of approach to the line HQ and Coys, as these will be drawing supply frequently and 'as needed' once heavy fighting is engaged. Artillery can be used to disrupt enemies who can see the supply route (or a temporary withdrawal of depleted Companies to a covered location, with replacement by fresh reserves ~ best done at night). The OOS unit can then resume reserve posture, resupply without risk of losses and rest. Each Bn and Regt should as far as possible be retained in one place (not so much to concentrate firepower/effectiveness, though this can help), but also to minimise 'cross' movements of supply, which as far as possible should enter units from their direct rear and from cover.

Consider dropping supply priority for exposed elements who are heavily engaged ~ they will then need replacement once their mission is complete, but replenishment will be faster if they can rapidly be brought out of the line and back to the reserve location, and protect the supply capacity. Shortest possible supply routes (consistent with the Base being out of direct sight) is good for turn-around times on emergency supply too. When we had the infantry A/T not being re-stocked (which I think is now dead and gone), I was seeing completed supply turn-arounds of basics and SAA at one hour intervals. This matters a *bit* less for artillery, as it takes a lot longer to unload the larger convoys and travel time isn't the biggest problem, but equally you have more trucks tied up, for more time overall.

[Lieste]

And while it *sounds* like a lot of micro-management, it really isn't... more a simple policy of supply management that is a consideration in shaping the manoeuvre plan of the combat arms. But mostly *left to itself* once the scheme is decided. It is only in handling the Fwd detachment/OMG/Rearguard that I adjust the priority at all. The rest is just maintaining a 'FLOT' and unit integrity, and selecting a sustainable plan.

[Phoenix100]

I understand. It's really a desperately tall order for a scenario like From the Meuse to the Rhine, with the original SEPs. If you place the bases near the bridges then the road from SEP to base is indeed long. Too long to guard effectively, because you don't really have enough units to spare.

For your scheme, I would think it's usually best to reverse the game default and untick 'basing'.

[Lieste]

It can be very beneficial to throw a spanner in the enemy's workings. Observation and control of his supply lines can render even powerful combat arms impotent very quickly - they only have ammunition for 1-2 days fighting at best... having him run out of bullets & beans first is a good way to turn the tide.

[Lieste]

I *always* explicitly place Bases, Artillery and higher HQ. Then reattach those that need no further 'current' input with an in-situ order. The default locations for Bases and other supporting arms are usually too far back for tactical levels. Division and up is sometimes ok, but the AI doesn't prioritise connectivity, and the predictability of routeing (which is more important than distance/cover). The last thing you want is a 'detour' via the whole of the 1SSPzKp, when there is an alternative... or driving cross mountains, when shorter, more direct routes are possible/preferable.

I'd note that I don't like SEP types of other than 'Airdrop' or 'Airlanding', even for road deliveries, where the highest Base cannot be isolated from supply. I usually change all scenarios so that all SEP are Airlanding. If this results in too little supply being "pushed" forward, then I use an additional higher level base (although (maybe) at reduced strength) to feed forward supplies from stocks (although I do tend to make these rather low at first, at least requiring Corps/Army to collect stocks from the SEP 'deliveries'.

SEP (Road) all receive off-map supply via trucks direct to on-map Supply-boss.
SEP (Air) all require recovery of supply from the dumped location(s) (SEP or depot stocks).

[Phoenix100]

Can you explain that last point, please, Lieste? In the scenmaker the options go;
Arrival Type
RoadType
Move Type

What are you saying I should select to get off-map supply via trucks direct to on-map supply boss?
And what does that mean? In Maas-Rein, for example, is the on-map supply boss the 82nd airborne base?
Does that mean there can be no loss of supply or column between the SEP and the on-map supply boss? (as if the trucks etc were all provided by the SEP and indestructible).?

Sorry. Just don't understand what you mean.

EDIT:

Read the manual, and now I do partially understand. But, can I place a Ground SEP in the middle of Oosterbeek, say? With delivery by road, and will this - rather artificially - mean that supplies will go direct from that SEP to the supply boss, without any danger to the 'columns' between the SEP and the supply boss (or danger to the base's transport compliment)? For that matter, is it the same result if I move the 82nd SEP to a map edge, on a road, change it's type to 'ground' (with Road delivery), then place the 82nd airborne supply base up near the troops near the bridge - with thus no loss of supply or trucks between the SEP and the 82nd base? (Because it's off-map 'virtual' (indestructible) trucks that are used to get from the SEP to the base?)

[wodin]

I'm not sure how supply trucks reroute if they took lots f casualties first try...your trucks may keep taking the same route all the time getting killed off...it's something I've meant to ask Dave. I have a feeling the supply trucks don't reroute or think on the fly. So your trucks may have taken the direct route into the City and all been wiped out..do that a few times you have no trucks left..they may reroute the second time but again hit enemy forces..I've always found to garuntee supply the major direct route needs to be kept open. I doubt in real life trucks would try to go down a railway line..one it maybe be raised or hedged off on on an embankment or even worry a train comes along so i wouldn't expect them to follow it. Again as i don't think supply trucks constantly reassess their routes then you have to be careful. I also think you'd send the supply convoy with some sort of protection anyway which isn't factored in game I don't think..I also think maybe some supply AI needs tweaking so it will reassess if it comes across enemy forces or spots them even if it means they quickly turn round back to base then try a different route. Again I'm not sure supply convoys are coded in hi Fidelity and a fair amount of abstraction and only basic steps are taken. Though I could be wrong.

Also aren't the airborne SEP's set in scenarios where landing drops happened in real life? So all the equip they had in gliders or parachuted in would be there? Moving them would in effect be moving the historical landing zones. Just a thought but don't get to hung to about winning every scenario..or make a new scenario or change the reenforcement\supply settings in your favour at the start. Remember some scenarios really in the MG game should be extremely difficult to draw let alone win.

[Arjuna]

Each resupply column that goes out determines its route at the time it leaves the Base and again on its return when it leaves the unit it was supplying.

Another point re cutting supply lines . These are not cut just by enemy occupied areas but by their APer and AArm firepower zones. So if an enemy unit occupies say 300 x 200m but has an effective APer fire range of 600m, then it can cut any supply line within 600m. The only exceptions to this IIRC are where the fire zone intersects with a friendly occupied area. It's not guaranteed but it does mitigate the fire effect.

[Phoenix100]

Thanks Wodin. it's not about winning it, it's about enjoying messing around with the variables and the scenmaker. A new experience for me. Lot to learn about the game, including the supply mechanics.

The trucks in question are jeeps, by the way. I have no idea whether the game models them going along rail lines, though I expect so, since I'm able to supply my troops at the other side of Arnhem rail bridge, with no other crossing point available.

[Phoenix100]

Thanks Dave. I'm beginning to understand how difficult supply can be!

[jimcarravall]

Just curious how the default "valid supply route" from depot to the pulling unit can be defined in terms of the unit movement preferences (quickest, shortest, avoidance, covered, safest).

Could have an impact on where to place depots in relation to the maneuver forces they support.

[Lieste]

Avoidance, but blended with 'quickest' where intel is poor. Not expecting anything other than 'through the main position of the enemy' seems key if you leave any ambiguity to the route selection though [:'(]

[Deathtreader]

ORIGINAL: Lieste

Avoidance, but blended with 'quickest' where intel is poor. Not expecting anything other than 'through the main position of the enemy' seems key if you leave any ambiguity to the route selection though [:'(]

[:D][:D][:D]

[Phoenix100]

I've been having great fun with the scenmaker. Imagine, I play this game for all these years and then discover the things you can do, quite easily (though you do have to read the manual....) with the scenario maker. I might even be creating scenarios next. I've created, so far, Market Garden (over From the Maas to the Rhine) as they should have done it (as, indeed, the airborne generals wanted to do it) - less drops, closer to the objectives. It's been TOO absorbing messing with it and playing it through. Too many late nights, too much eye strain. BUT, the thing I'm finding hardest of all to master (not in terms of fiddling with the scenario but just in terms of how to play the thing right)is getting the supply through to the front line units uninterrupted, by day (emergency resupply). I have well protected perimetres around bases, bases at most a couple of kilometres from the action, parent bases a few hundred yards from Battallion bases, and still I'm losing 100% of columns between parent base and Bn base or other units just a few hundred metres apart. Can only think it must be arty, but I don't see any arty coming down.

[Arjuna]

How close are the enemy to your front lines. I fthey are very close then the enemy firepower zone will extend into and probably beyond the occupied area of your units. This will make it very difficult to resupply such units. WHat would normally happen in such circumstances is the unit would send back a party usually at night to a resupply drop off point some distance back where the vehicles could offload in safety. But if you are in a goose egg perimeter like the poms at Arnhem then there is no safe area in the back.

[Phoenix100]

I think that must be it, Dave. Having dropped 1st AB on Driel I've established (I'm on day 4 now) a nice big bridge head on the nth bank of the road bridge, which, basically, stopped all those units coursing over the bridge (headed for the 'max' priority vic loc at Nijmegan - is that how it works, very basically - the AI prioritises its objectives according to the priority set at the victory locations etc?). But that means there's a huge enemy concentration face to face with all 1st AB and they're under constant fire. Pic below. There's no threat south of the picture

[Phoenix100]

At Nijmegan it's been hardest. Pic below. VERY difficult to keep the 508 in supply. XXX CORPS rolling through now, so harder to see the Somerchem supply dump, but before the tanks got through I had many messages saying 100% supply failure within that supply dump area at Somerchem.