RA 5.4

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: tigercub
there was talk about judy/jills coming in early into the game etc… By great effort the IJNAF deploys nearly all new aircraft on December 7th has this changed?

Please clarify what do you mean. Judys and Jills certainly aren't available at the beginning of the war.

[bigred]

ORIGINAL: FatR

The problem with Fletchers in the game is their goddamn armor, that allows them to say "nope" to about half of 127/50 3YT hits in a typical engagement. I'm not knowledgeable enough in shipbuilidng to say if it is justifed, but this gives them a very big advantage in what otherwise is an equal matchup. Now, even I can tell their speed is overrated by the game, which contributes to their overpoweredness, but 2 knots won't make much of a difference during calculation. I tweaked Japanese DD uprades in the current RA version, so that late-war upgrades won't reduce anti-surface armament, but this probably won't help that much, considering that I avoid many of such upgrades anyway in my games, and Jap DDs still get punked more often than not.

For Perfect War I'm redoing the evolution of Japanese DP guns from mid-1920s to deal with this problem, although as my alternative 120mm DP guns won't have be that much better against surface targets, I assume that Fletchers will still rule.


To clarify my notes about protection, Agano was armored against 6in shells, but, IIRC, had no real anti-torpedo protection.



EDIT: Also, disregarding light cruisers and tasking second-rate shipyards from my table above with mass destroyer conctruction is what I'd probably do in this situation, but (a)I'm not sure we should change the mod this radically at the present stage and (b)I don't want to intrude too much on John's playground. Just describing relatively plausible options here...

I urge caution and restraint concerning modifications to the IJN DD OOB. Reminder FatR is in the heat of battle(1944) in both his games.

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: FatR

Any comments, John?

Stanislav:

I read everything in the proposals and have wanted to comment but have simply been trying to get my turns kept up and do something with the AAR. Did not see all these additions you've made since posting the proposals. PROMISE to go through this tomorrow and comment...

Will say that some of these original proposals make a bunch of sense.

John

[FatR]

Another note, John - I'm against the addition of extra CLs and CVLs in RA's current version... but I should note, that Japanese had at least 4 additional APs suitable for CVE construction.

Of those present in the mod:

Argentina Maru (what the heck, she was reconstructed as Kayo - magical AE hull duplication!)
Brazil Maru (scheduled for a CVE reconstruction, sunk in 1942 before it happened)
Kamakura Maru
Tatsuta Maru
Asama Maru

All these ships started the war as troop transports. Reconstuction took less than a year for most of them. Standard destroyer engines could be used, like on Kayo. Those CVE will be pretty vulnerable with poor speed and no protection, but it is the least resource-intensive way to further increase Japanese carrier fleed during the war.

[John 3rd]

I used two of those vessels to allow for the building of two new CVEs.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

I used two of those vessels to allow for the building of two new CVEs.

But they still are present as APs... How about giving them a CVE conversion option, active late 1942 or early, instead of adding them to the construction queue?

[John 3rd]

Deal! Conversion Option makes great sense to me.

[FatR]

And the last thing - I'm thinking it would be good to include Babes' additions to the naval OOB into RA. I'm willing to transfer RA additions to the Babes' classes/ships lists, but that's why I need the list of the current changes: can't remember what exactly was added on the level of destroyers and below. I'll also most likely need your help adjusting taskforces and ship placement for Turn 1, after it is done. What do you think about overhauling RA for 6.0, by including both Babes and the changes proposed above, if you like them?

[MrBlizzard]

Hi all,
After upgrading to RA 5.3, I've some air HQ that upgrade in... 9999 days!?! so I'm afraid thay'll never get radar and AA [:(]. I wonder if there is a solution [&:]
Thanks in advance

[FatR]

In 5.4 the TOE of Japanese air flotillas upgrades on 430615. Or at least is supposed to. Hopefully John can clarify that, not exactly my area.


EDIT: Actually, upon reading a manual it seems that there might be a mistake in assigning TOE upgrades for IJN air fleets and flotillas. Tomorrow I will test it and post a 5.5 version with this bug and this bug only fixed, if I'm correct in my reading of the editor's manual.

[MrBlizzard]

FatR thank you much for analyzing this issue!
I'd like to not loose those assets, radar and AA are very valuable for Japan to fill a huge gap vs Allies. RA is well balanced, has better playability and gives a chance to Japan, that's why I like it.
I believe that Air HQ can upgrade, I've got some that could upgrade without problems!
The issue begun when I upgraded to RA5.3 from a former version only for the HQ not yet upgraded.

[michaelm75au]

ORIGINAL: FatR

In 5.4 the TOE of Japanese air flotillas upgrades on 430615. Or at least is supposed to. Hopefully John can clarify that, not exactly my area.


EDIT: Actually, upon reading a manual it seems that there might be a mistake in assigning TOE upgrades for IJN air fleets and flotillas. Tomorrow I will test it and post a 5.5 version with this bug and this bug only fixed, if I'm correct in my reading of the editor's manual.

IIRC, there were similar errors in the stock scenarios originally.
In old WITP, TOEs had a delay date of 9999.
In AE, the 'delay' date in a TOE is the date that the next TOE upgrade can start from.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: michaelm

IIRC, there were similar errors in the stock scenarios originally.
In old WITP, TOEs had a delay date of 9999.
In AE, the 'delay' date in a TOE is the date that the next TOE upgrade can start from.

Yes, this pretty much seems to be the error in question, thanks.


After I set the delay for the original TOE to the date of upgrade, and the delay for the upgrade TOE to 9999, upgrades seem to be working as intended.

I've uploaded the fixes version as RA 5.5 to the site.

[FatR]

Aaand, to put it all in one place, here's my proposal for RA 6.0.

1)Take DaBabes Scen 28C ships/classes list, and apply to it RA's additions. Thankfully, I already did much work regarding Japanese cargo ships, various auxilaries, etc, for the Perfect War ship list, which can be applied to RA pretty much as is, so only major combatants and escorts need to be redone.

1.1)Scen 28C reduces cargo loads for all transports and tankers by about 1/3. To avoid a premature bankrupcy of Japanese economy in RA, where Japan has less fuel reserves, and to keep the overall spirit of the mod, I propose reducing fuel stats for Japanese cargo ships and small auxilaties by about 40%, if proposal (1) is accepted, which will make them go the same range on less fuel.

2)Let's stick to the original RA complement of extra major combatants: 3 Shokaku-kai carriers, 2 Kawachi battlecruisers (with the second one renamed to Kasuga) 2 new Tone-kai CAs, 4 Oyodo-sised CLs (using the proposal from the previous page, named Yahagi class, to separate them from the stock Aganos). The Yahagi class is pushed into construction a bit earlier, because of a clearer vision regarding its specifications, but not too much earlier, because the shipyard intended to build them probably needs reconstruction... In addition, 5 large APs are provided with an option to convert to Kayo-class CVEs, the fist two on 42/12, the rest on 43/6. Conversion takes 270 days. Removed are Shinano, Taiho, all of the original light and training cruisers, Kayo, Army CVEs. Let's look at the resulting shipyard load in the mod:



You might see, that several ships should most likely arrive later than they do, including Renkaku (3/44, this all of the following dates are approximate, of course), Kasuga (12/43), Yahagi (6/42), Oyodo (8/43), Noshiro (10/43) and Sakawa (12/44)

On the other hand, Ryukaku (10/42), Kawachi (11/42) and the second batch of Unryu-class carriers (late 1944) can be made available earlier.

I do think that this makes the Japanese program less loaded specifically for 1943. But on the other hand, much fewer valuable ships will arrive hopelessly late.


2.1)This program is actually already a fair bit above "realistic" Japanese construction capabilities. You might see, that shipyards in my table work almost without pauses, laying down new ships immediately or almost immediately after the previous ones leave their slipways (except for Mitsubishi's shipyard in Nagasaki - that's because we need a shipyard set aside for all the conversions). IRL, it was not so. This is one reason I'm against adding new major combatants beyond the original RA vision.

The other reason is that, IMO, Japan, unless defeated badly and early, needs extra destroyers and small amphibious ships much more than it needs extra cruisers. In my oldest RA game I'm now forced to avoid engagements because I cannot build balanced taskforces anymore. Thankfully, the current versions of RA already provide for this, to an extent.


3)I also think, that, even despite the HI tax, the side of IJNAF pilot training program should be increased somewhat. 300 pilots/month in 1944 is not enough.

4)My proposals regarding the light forces still stand.

[MrBlizzard]

+
Destroyers are a real bottleneck for japan Navy from the beginning, I've got some cuisers stuck in port o some TF with 3 cruisers and only 3 DD because of the scarcity of DD.
Japan begins with no Escorts and has to relay on PB and few DMS to escort all the merchant fleet. At least for the main TK and the most valuable assets I use older DD, that are not suitable for surface TF engagement.
replacement of navy pilots seems also to be scarce, I'm only in'42 but the pool has already decreased , I wonder what will happen in '44

Thanks for all this wonderful job. I'm sure you're having much fun too, creating and keeping alive a Mod from this Masterpiece sounds very involving.
I wonder if it's more fun for you creating the mod or playing it? [:)]

[Kitakami]

One question... does that change need a restart?

Thanks!

ORIGINAL: FatR

ORIGINAL: michaelm

IIRC, there were similar errors in the stock scenarios originally.
In old WITP, TOEs had a delay date of 9999.
In AE, the 'delay' date in a TOE is the date that the next TOE upgrade can start from.

Yes, this pretty much seems to be the error in question, thanks.


After I set the delay for the original TOE to the date of upgrade, and the delay for the upgrade TOE to 9999, upgrades seem to be working as intended.

I've uploaded the fixes version as RA 5.5 to the site.

[FatR]

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

One question... does that change need a restart?

Thanks!

To my knowledge, no. But I advise to keep a reserve save from before updating, just in case.

[Kitakami]

ORIGINAL: FatR

ORIGINAL: Kitakami

One question... does that change need a restart?

Thanks!

To my knowledge, no. But I advise to keep a reserve save from before updating, just in case.

Ok... it worked! I just did not want to redo about 25% of turn one (of course, it would have been even worse if it had been a game that had been going for a long time).

Thanks!

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: FatR

By comparison - the same table with carriers and battlecruisers from RA mapped to it (I'm assuming roughly 1.5 years on the slipways for a Shokaku-class carrier and 2 years for a battlecruiser). Looking at this, Ryukaku should be probably available earlier, 1-2/1943, and Renkaku later, 2-3/1944.




P.S. Also, it strikes me now that we have two Ikomas in our fleet - a carrier and a battlecruiser! This needs fixing...

Remember FatR that we ADD two cruiser/cv-sized slipways to Japan with RA. Did you factor that? We have one at Shanghai and added the other somewhere in the Home Islands. WE had one heck of a discussion as to whether there was room in any of the HI Ports and came up with only the one. Cannot remember WHERE for the life of me!

[John 3rd]

ORIGINAL: MrBlizzard

+
Destroyers are a real bottleneck for japan Navy from the beginning, I've got some cuisers stuck in port o some TF with 3 cruisers and only 3 DD because of the scarcity of DD.
Japan begins with no Escorts and has to relay on PB and few DMS to escort all the merchant fleet. At least for the main TK and the most valuable assets I use older DD, that are not suitable for surface TF engagement.
replacement of navy pilots seems also to be scarce, I'm only in'42 but the pool has already decreased , I wonder what will happen in '44

Thanks for all this wonderful job. I'm sure you're having much fun too, creating and keeping alive a Mod from this Masterpiece sounds very involving.
I wonder if it's more fun for you creating the mod or playing it? [:)]

WE specialized Japanese DD construction to just two Ports following Kaigun's suggestions in its shipbuilding chapter. Maizuru and Port rthur construct nearly every single one of the Japanese DDs. This facilitates a Japanese version of quicker American Production. WE shaved DD construction timetables by (I think) about 3 months on average and added a few smaller slipways by expanding these Ports capacity..