New Race request/question

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Nanaki
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RE: New Race request/question

Post by Nanaki »

In the case of humans, yes, if only because humans sans clothing are not particularly well adapted to life outside the savannahs of Africa. Aside from that, there are a number of large and small animals whom have managed to adapt to a massive variety of climates without the use of clothing. Sure, none of them are as particularly adaptive as humans are, but there probably is not a whole lot of difference between a home range of 90% and a home range of 99%, and it is not like such species wont consider the use of clothing when travelling in the areas considered inhospitable. There is a difference between not placing a whole lot of cultural emphasis on clothing, and being hostile to the concept entirely.

As for dominating the planet, only Western European civilization managed to do that. The 'other' civilizations on the planet, Chinese, Middle Eastern, et cetra were simply those whom managed to avoid being destroyed or converted, either due to being too large or too well-equipped for European armies to destroy or dominate, or too small and far away from the Europeans for them to bother.
This would've been disastrous, as Africa is a terrible place for technical civilization to both start and sustain itself.

The Egyptians would probably beg to differ.
I ate the batter of the bulge at Hans' Haus of Luftwaffles
ParagonExile
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RE: New Race request/question

Post by ParagonExile »

ORIGINAL: Nanaki

In the case of humans, yes, if only because humans sans clothing are not particularly well adapted to life outside the savannahs of Africa. Aside from that, there are a number of large and small animals whom have managed to adapt to a massive variety of climates without the use of clothing. Sure, none of them are as particularly adaptive as humans are, but there probably is not a whole lot of difference between a home range of 90% and a home range of 99%, and it is not like such species wont consider the use of clothing when travelling in the areas considered inhospitable. There is a difference between not placing a whole lot of cultural emphasis on clothing, and being hostile to the concept entirely.

Fair enough, but you'd need to provide evidence of this. We don't know how much intelligence is related to physiology (if at all) beyond simple brain-to-body ratio. And unfortunately, we only know of one technical sapient race, us. It may be that the trade-offs between dexterity/intelligence and innate adaptability preclude each other to some extent or the other. I 'dunno

Keep in mind however, that Humans are the most abundant large animals on Earth by a large margin, and we outnumber even most small mammals and birds.
As for dominating the planet, only Western European civilization managed to do that. The 'other' civilizations on the planet, Chinese, Middle Eastern, et cetra were simply those whom managed to avoid being destroyed or converted, either due to being too large or too well-equipped for European armies to destroy or dominate, or too small and far away from the Europeans for them to bother.

I think that can be argued.

Japan for example, has never been totally overtaken by Europeans, only ever losing to the US with the use of a massively destructive war. Before that, they held sway over hundreds of millions of people. China, India and the Middle East were also seats of immense empires. European dominance in the 1000's was transitory.
The Egyptians would probably beg to differ.

The Egyptians, for all their accomplishments, were primitive simpletons.

Africa has no beasts of burden, has an inhospitable climate not conductive to farming, its natural mineral resources are difficult to reach without the aid of machines and so on. We originated there, but we were not made there. China, India and Europe were vastly more powerful and developed because they had what Africa didn't; ease of access to resources.
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Mansen
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RE: New Race request/question

Post by Mansen »

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile

Keep in mind however, that Humans are the most abundant large animals on Earth by a large margin, and we outnumber even most small mammals and birds.

That's an easy claim to make when there are so many subspecies of birds mammals and god knows what else on the planet.
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ParagonExile
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RE: New Race request/question

Post by ParagonExile »

ORIGINAL: Mansen
That's an easy claim to make when there are so many subspecies of birds mammals and god knows what else on the planet.

I know Humans outnumber nearly all large animals (~human size animals) by leaps and bounds. I think the only exceptions are goats.

Smaller animals, while more common overall, are less common an a species-for-species basis. We outnumber many species of small animals, but are beaten by small animal genus' and demolished by their families. For example, there are more than ten times as many Humans as red squirrels, but their family of Sciuridae (spelling?) eclipses us by billions.

Then there's chickens, who number over ten billion, but screw chickens, they're dumb.
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Mansen
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RE: New Race request/question

Post by Mansen »

Exactly the point I was making - Stating such a claim is entirely useless because of how we decide to set apart species and genus in various ways.

Humans are no in way or shape dominant on this earth. We may rule it, but not through numbers.
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ParagonExile
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RE: New Race request/question

Post by ParagonExile »

I actually don't understand what this conversation is about.

lol
Nanaki
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RE: New Race request/question

Post by Nanaki »

ORIGINAL: ParagonExile
Fair enough, but you'd need to provide evidence of this. We don't know how much intelligence is related to physiology (if at all) beyond simple brain-to-body ratio. And unfortunately, we only know of one technical sapient race, us. It may be that the trade-offs between dexterity/intelligence and innate adaptability preclude each other to some extent or the other. I 'dunno

As for evidence that there are other cosmopolitan species other than humans, here you go. As for the brain, unfortunately, the only answer I can definitively provide is 'I do not know', the brain is by far the least understood organ, and there is still a lot of unaswered questions as to what exactly is necessary to have a sentient species. Note that there are likely a huge number of factors and brain-to-body ratio is only one of those, other major factors likely include total body mass and how the brain is wired/subdivided. Infact, you can create a non-human with exactly the same brain-to-body ratio and body mass as humans, but they may not necessarily be sentient due to how their brains are wired. However, it is not unreasonable to say that a non-human race can have the same brain-to-body ratio and body mass and can possibly be sentient as well.
Keep in mind however, that Humans are the most abundant large animals on Earth by a large margin, and we outnumber even most small mammals and birds.

This is largely a product of the agricultural revolution, and later the industrial revolution. Prior to the industrial revolution human population stayed below a billion, and before the agricultural revolution (and civilization), human populations were only in the 5-10 million level. sauce
I think that can be argued.

No, it cannot. The British, French, Portugese, Spanish, Dutch, and German empires came to span most of the globe. The Chinese empire never went past mainland China, and the Japanese empire never expanded far past its shores.
One Two and Three maps that show that most of the world, aside from China, Turkey, part of the Middle East, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran, were 'colonized' by Europeans at some point or another.
Japan for example, has never been totally overtaken by Europeans, only ever losing to the US with the use of a massively destructive war. Before that, they held sway over hundreds of millions of people. China, India and the Middle East were also seats of immense empires.

The Japanese empire only had about ~70-80 million people at its height, and then it was defeated, occupied, and culturally changed by the US in the aftermath of World War 2. You mention that they were never overtaken by Europeans, this is wrong, the US (European in itself) had.
European dominance in the 1000's was transitory.

Even to this day European-descended culture and values dominate the world. The places where Western culture does not dominate outright are few, and even in those places western culture is slowly seeping in with exception of violently isolationist cultures like the Sentinelese. Aside from a massive catastrophic collapse, like which would happen in a global nuclear war, that trend will continue.
The Egyptians, for all their accomplishments, were primitive simpletons.

You are forgetting Egypt, alongside the Tigris/Euphrates rivers set in the equally inhospitable Middle East, is where civilization originated. You are correct in that it was not the place of the industrial revolution, but we are not talking about the industrial revolution, we are talking about civilization.
I ate the batter of the bulge at Hans' Haus of Luftwaffles
ParagonExile
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RE: New Race request/question

Post by ParagonExile »

Before I say anything else, plese keep in mind there is a language barrier here.
ORIGINAL: Nanaki
As for evidence that there are other cosmopolitan species other than humans, here you go.

This was never an issue and I never objected to this. :3
As for the brain, unfortunately, the only answer I can definitively provide is 'I do not know', the brain is by far the least understood organ, and there is still a lot of unaswered questions as to what exactly is necessary to have a sentient species. Note that there are likely a huge number of factors and brain-to-body ratio is only one of those, other major factors likely include total body mass and how the brain is wired/subdivided. Infact, you can create a non-human with exactly the same brain-to-body ratio and body mass as humans, but they may not necessarily be sentient due to how their brains are wired. However, it is not unreasonable to say that a non-human race can have the same brain-to-body ratio and body mass and can possibly be sentient as well.

You mirror my own thoughts.
This is largely a product of the agricultural revolution, and later the industrial revolution. Prior to the industrial revolution human population stayed below a billion, and before the agricultural revolution (and civilization), human populations were only in the 5-10 million level. sauce

Absolutely correct.

Our ability to shape both the world and our tools (including clothes lol) is what gives us an edge. Again, no complaints.
No, it cannot. The British, French, Portugese, Spanish, Dutch, and German empires came to span most of the globe. The Chinese empire never went past mainland China, and the Japanese empire never expanded far past its shores.
One Two and Three maps that show that most of the world, aside from China, Turkey, part of the Middle East, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Iran, were 'colonized' by Europeans at some point or another.

In case you forgot, that's an immense number of people and huge tracts of land, and those areas never being dominated is a huge part of why they are distinct today.The map also includes Russia there, even though Russians are culturally, ethnically, linguistically and (mostly) geographically not European. Coincidentally, Russia is by far the world's largest nation, and much of Siberia is more-or-less ignored by everyone. You also neglected to mention Japan.

Even people that were colonized, such as the Native Americans or Indians, still maintained to keep their cultural identity and spread that to hundreds of millions of people, despite a foreign power nominally ruling over them.
The Japanese empire only had about ~70-80 million people at its height, and then it was defeated, occupied, and culturally changed by the US in the aftermath of World War 2. You mention that they were never overtaken by Europeans, this is wrong, the US (European in itself) had.

The Area formally controlled by Japan (Manchuria, parts of Korea, and the home islands) was that size, you're entirely correct. However, the extent of their conquest from the 1930s to 1943 put almost every nation on the Pacific at their mercy. Australia and the United States were only saved by sheer dumb luck that the American carrier groups were not docked when Hawaii was bombed. They also occupied and dominated much of coastal China.

The United States had its beginning in British settlers, but to call them Europeans is akin to calling me Arab because my 10th great-grandparents were from Arabia. It's strictly-speaking correct, but it's still wrong from a practical point of view. The Americans, Canadians and the remainder of the south are wholly distinct entities now.
Even to this day European-descended culture and values dominate the world.

There are about twice as many Asians living in the south-east of their continent, with a wholly different culture from us, than there are white Europeans and Americans total.
The places where Western culture does not dominate outright are few, and even in those places western culture is slowly seeping in with exception of violently isolationist cultures like the Sentinelese. Aside from a massive catastrophic collapse, like which would happen in a global nuclear war, that trend will continue.

If you're talking about capitalism or consumerism, then you're correct. That is, however, not the province of the countries we refer to as the west, it's an economic policy. Traditional cultures still exist in greater numbers than what we have here, and they incorporate that into what they already have.

I can imagine homogenization of culture in hundreds of years, or much sooner if we continue to improve interconnection, but I highly doubt it will be what we consider western.
You are forgetting Egypt, alongside the Tigris/Euphrates rivers set in the equally inhospitable Middle East, is where civilization originated. You are correct in that it was not the place of the industrial revolution, but we are not talking about the industrial revolution, we are talking about civilization.

What's the point of a civilization if it just ends up floundering in the sand?

You can invent math, build huge monoliths, dream up incredible pantheons and pioneer sweeping social change, but if you lack the ability to use them due to your circumstances you may as well not exist (Ignoring the obvious benefits they gave us with their experience).

Anyways, I don't understand why we're having this conversation, and I don't understand the relevance to Distant Worlds :D
Nanaki
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RE: New Race request/question

Post by Nanaki »

I would not say that Russia is not culturally European, maybe it was like this in ancient times, but ever since Peter The Great, Russia has most certainly imported a great deal of Western culture.
The Area formally controlled by Japan (Manchuria, parts of Korea, and the home islands) was that size, you're entirely correct. However, the extent of their conquest from the 1930s to 1943 put almost every nation on the Pacific at their mercy. Australia and the United States were only saved by sheer dumb luck that the American carrier groups were not docked when Hawaii was bombed. They also occupied and dominated much of coastal China.

Imperial Japan was certainly powerful, but even if it sunk the US Carrier groups it would have lost in the end, US manufacturing capability at the time was greater than the rest of the world combined, and Pearl Harbor also made a huge doctrinal change in the US, whom figured out first-hand just how important carriers would be, while the Japanese High Command had, even after the massive success of Pearl Harbor, still largely placed carriers secondary to battleships.

The only difference is that the the war would have been likely longer and bloodier, with more atomic bombs dropped.
The United States had its beginning in British settlers, but to call them Europeans is akin to calling me Arab because my 10th great-grandparents were from Arabia. It's strictly-speaking correct, but it's still wrong from a practical point of view. The Americans, Canadians and the remainder of the south are wholly distinct entities now.

The US is not so much a different entity as it represents an evolution of European culture that started with the Reformation, Industrial Revolution, and the rise of democratic government in the ashes of Europe's autocracies. European culture has hardly been monolithic, it has changed enormously since it first went global during the Age of Sail.
There are about twice as many Asians living in the south-east of their continent, with a wholly different culture from us, than there are white Europeans and Americans total.

Population =/= Power, and even in those areas, western culture is growing. China is by far one of the highest conversion rates for Christians, and India itself is having a lot of internal unrest as local culture clashes with western-imported culture.
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Tehlongone
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RE: New Race request/question

Post by Tehlongone »

I thought you were talking dominance of the West as opposed to specifically the geographic entity of Europe. In that case The USA is definitely both part of the Western Sphere and essentially European culture-wise with only a few differences.

Russia is culturally European and much of the most developed area is in Europe. The only reason they are not part of the Western Sphere is because they choose not to.

South America is culturally distinct but shaped enormously by European influence. Language, religion and much of their culture is essentially European.

India is pretty distinct but were dominated for quite a while and has had their culture changed to some degree.

China is fully distinct but was dominated (albeit without conquest) for a long time, same goes for the Middle East, except most of that was conquered.

Japan is very influenced by the west and so is most of the other East Asian nations.

How is that not dominance? You can't call Asians dominant just because some of them managed to avoid being overly dominated themselves. The amount of people in a country is not evidence of any kind of dominance if they never expand outside their own part of the world, at most evidence of resilience.
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