Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

This new stand alone release based on the legendary War in the Pacific from 2 by 3 Games adds significant improvements and changes to enhance game play, improve realism, and increase historical accuracy. With dozens of new features, new art, and engine improvements, War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!

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Aurorus
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by Aurorus »

ORIGINAL: spence

Aside from all the perks that the Japanese automatically get such as (in the "Historical" Scenario):

1) sinking or damaging double or thereabouts the number of ships which their PH raid actually inflicted
2) hanging Force Z out to dry
3) damaging Singapore (starts with the damage) with the same bombers that attack Force Z
4) giving the IJA enough supply to immediately launch one or more offensives in China in spite of the fact that it was stalemated and had been for 3 years (frankly there ought to be more a bigger difference between motorized supply such as the US enjoyed and the horse/mule drawn supply train of the IJA)
5) giving the IJN enough fuel to sortie all its BBs repeatedly when in reality sortie them once expended a whole years worth of fuel (speaking of BBs - other than the 4 Kongos the rest of the battlefleet was pretty much a joke throughout the Japanese Navy and its record in combat pretty much justifies that)
6) doubling of the IJNs ability to launch an airstrike from its aircraft carriers - doctrine AND carrier construction limited IJN carriers from launching all of their strike a/c in a single raid - two smaller raids are easier to fight off than one huge raid)
7) giving the IJN 1944 style USN fleet defense from the start when they didn't adopt the ring defense until 1944 and never developed a CIC/Fighter Direction Center at all.
8) the knowledge that most Allied submarines will be all but impotent until at Jan 1943
9) the removal of the SBD4 from the Allied OB (approx 900 airframes between Oct 42 and April 43 (there were essentially no SBDs in the Atlantic Fleet until Oct 1942 when Torch was launched) - since the SBD4 was all identical to the SBD3 the actual a/c is not important, rather the difference is in the overall replacement rate from the beginning of the war.

After all it's only a game. All that would be OK with me as well as allowing the Japanese Player to do whatever is desired within the constraints of production correcting operational deficiencies except that the Allied Player (which was far more adaptable to change than the hidebound IJA/IJN Supreme Command) is stuck making no adjustments whatever to the changed Japanese operational doctrine/tactics.


1) This has never been my experience, and I think most AARs testify to the fact that the Pearl Harbor raid, if not playing a historical Dec. 7th, is less effective than historical.

2) BBs Repulse and PoW were both sunk historically, so I have no idea what your objection is. In non-historical Dec. 7th turns, the allies can usually evacuate both BBs. This combined with a raid on Pearl Harbor that does less damage than historically, means that Japan in this game is often confronted with 3 or 4 more BBs than they were historically.

3) Singapore starts with damage to prevent the construction of fortifications immediately, I would assume. The British surrendered very easily here, and their surrender included the loss of the entire 18th division. That result is nearly impossible to achieve for Japan in the game. Again, I have no idea what you objection is, and what you portray as an IJN advantage is, in point of fact, a disadvantage over what happened historically.

4) The front in China had been stalemated mostly because Japan was pursuing The Thai campaigns and performing fleet exercises to prepare for a general Pacific War. After the war began, Japan did not furnish its military in China with supply sufficient to engage in offensive operations. This was a strategic-level decision by the Japanese High Command. Most Japanese players do spend supply in China. This is why Japanese players in this game have more success than Japan did historically in China. I can tell you, from experience playing Japan in several AI games and PBEM stock games, that if Japan does not send additional supplies to China, local supply allows for about 2 months of offensive operations and nothing more. Any additional supplies sent to China are supplies that are not available in other theaters.

5) The IJN most definitely does not have enough fuel in stock scenario 1 to make regular use of its BBs. I think every Japanese player can testify to this.

6-7) Air combat and naval air missions are abstracted in game terms and then handled, in large part, by the various subroutines for air-to-air combat and air-to-naval combat. Though a report may show X number of planes involved, the arrival times of those planes often vary signficantly. Most historians agree that the higher experience and better training of the early-war Japanese naval aircrews allowed for better strike coordination than the allies. Furthermore, all CAP is limited to 30% on station: this despite the fact that the A6M2 could stay aloft far longer than the F4F. If anything, the CAP rules for CV combat favor the allies as implemented in the game, not the Japanese. Once again, I am not sure what your objection is. As to naval AA, in stock all AA is fairly weak, and the AA ratings for most Japanese ships in the early war, except for the fast BBs and CVs, is pretty low. Do the allies lose an enormous number of aircraft to Japanese naval flak in 1942? I have never seen this to be the case, and this complaint seems to me to be about a very minor issue.
InfiniteMonkey
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by InfiniteMonkey »

Aurorus already responded, but I was writing a response myself and decided to go ahead and post it.
ORIGINAL: spence

Aside from all the perks that the Japanese automatically get such as (in the "Historical" Scenario):

1) sinking or damaging double or thereabouts the number of ships which their PH raid actually inflicted
I've probably run the first turn a hundred times just with stock orders. I've seen results that exceeded historical results in less than 10% of attacks. In other words, roughly 80% of attacks using stock orders sink less than 2 battle ships. I just ran 5 trials of the first turn to evaluate PH attacks. NO cherry picking, just opened the Scenario 1 file and hit run.

Japanese losses
Historical: lost 29 planes. Range of IJN CV losses for 5 trials was 38 to 49 aircraft lost in attack. 33 to 66% greater plane losses.

Allied Day 1 losses between PH and Force Z:

Historical: 4 lost (POW, Repulse, Arizona, Oklahoma), 2 so severely damaged they would not return til 1944 (WV, California). 188 aircraft lost.

Aircraft losses at PH ranged from 51 to 73 a/c in the five trials.
Trial 1: no losses. Greatest ship sunk was a DM. However, PoW was at 95 float. BB Pennsylvania has 51 Sys dmg, Nevada has 60 Eng damage. Nothing else red.
Trial 2: POW & Repulse lost. Tennessee has 51 float damage, Maryland has 54 float damage. Nothing else red.
Trial 3: AZ lost. WV 64 Flt/51 Sys. POW 53 Flt, PA 56 Eng. Nothing else red.
Trial 4: POW and Repulse lost. Nothing red.
Trial 5: POW and Repulse lost. California has 59 Sys damage. Nothing else red.

In every trial Japanese losses exceeded historical and Allied losses were less than historical in both planes and ships. As I said, I've run hundreds of Turn 1, Scenario 1 and at one point recorded the results of over 40 attacks as I tried different settings. In roughly 40 trials, I sank 3 BB's once. I sank 2 BB's three times. In no case did I see results similar to the ones we saw in the historical attack. In EVERY case, the results were skewed to the AFB, not the JFB.
ORIGINAL: spence
2) hanging Force Z out to dry
Most PBEM games have a house rule that allows AFB to save Force Z, even though it was sunk historically. It was sunk historically, but it is a sign of JFB bias in the game design that Force Z has a chance to be sunk in game? Note in the trials shown above, they are sunk roughly 70% of the time (I'm counting the trial where float is 96 as sunk).
ORIGINAL: spence
3) damaging Singapore (starts with the damage) with the same bombers that attack Force Z
They are not the same bombers…. Did you even look at the Japanese side? The IJN has 99 bombers at Saigon on 12/7/1941. 54 of them are assigned to night bomb Singapore. The rest are set to naval Attack. I can see that Singapore has 50 port damage, but what is your point? My guess is that this is intended to simulate the period where Singapore was not building defenses because the threat was not taken seriously.
ORIGINAL: spence
4) giving the IJA enough supply to immediately launch one or more offensives in China in spite of the fact that it was stalemated and had been for 3 years (frankly there ought to be more a bigger difference between motorized supply such as the US enjoyed and the horse/mule drawn supply train of the IJA)

a) IJA had trucks. A typical flat land division had 3 transport companies each with 38 2-ton trucks. (114 trucks per division) Their supply train was not on par with American Divisions, but they were on par or superior to the Chinese they faced. Additionally, the presence of absence of trucks was related to the area it was deployed. They had Jungle and Mountainous divisions that skipped the trucks and used horses, carts, etc. You might want to pick up a copy of the two Rikugun books on Amazon. It details the support groups that a division possesed
b) IJA used rail for transport of men and supplies in China. (See Rikugun)
c) IJA managed to push into China to capture B-29 bases when they had to.
d) Japan was under international pressure to scale back it's moves in China following the Rape of Nanking in late 1937. Once war was enjoined, those concerns were no longer relevant.
e) I am not knowledgeable enough on China to debate it. You are probably somewhat right on this one. However, I'm not sure of that.
ORIGINAL: spence
5) giving the IJN enough fuel to sortie all its BBs repeatedly when in reality sortie them once expended a whole years worth of fuel (speaking of BBs - other than the 4 Kongos the rest of the battlefleet was pretty much a joke throughout the Japanese Navy and its record in combat pretty much justifies that)

2 Nagato class BB, 5560 tons fuel oil each
2 Ise class BB, 5113 tons fuel oil each
2 Fuso class BB, 5100 tons fuel oil each
4 Kongo class BB, 6330 tons fuel oil each

Total for all BB for one load of fuel: approximately 60000 tons fuel oil.

Navy petroleum product reserves on 1 December 1941 were 1,435,000 tons of crude oil; 3,634,000 tons of of bunker fuel; 473,000 tons of aviation gasoline; 27,000 tons of isooctane; 6400 tons of aircraft lubricants; 13,600 tons of ordinary lubricants; and 921,000 tons of petroleum derivatives already loaded on ships or distributed to overseas bases.

From <http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/O/i/Oil.htm>

They clearly had bunker fuel to sortie them, the problem was that the more they sortie them, the more other things like the economy suffer.
ORIGINAL: spence
6) doubling of the IJNs ability to launch an airstrike from its aircraft carriers - doctrine AND carrier construction limited IJN carriers from launching all of their strike a/c in a single raid - two smaller raids are easier to fight off than one huge raid)
7) giving the IJN 1944 style USN fleet defense from the start when they didn't adopt the ring defense until 1944 and never developed a CIC/Fighter Direction Center at all.
See Aurorus reply. I had something written, but… he said it better.
ORIGINAL: spence
8) the knowledge that most Allied submarines will be all but impotent until at Jan 1943
Funny, AFB's use the same knowledge to hide their subs with those torps until the dud rate improves. I don’t see you railing about the AFB's using the info to their advantage. Now that I think of it, how do I take advantage of that as a JFB? I still escort my task forces , I move what I need to move in the ships I need to move them in, etc. I've read far too much about the dismal performance of US torpedoes to suggest that they should have their dud rate reduced. If it were up to me, the dud rate would not go down until a certain number of torpedos had been duds on attacks. We all possess knowledge that gives us an advantage over the men whose decisions we second guess. This is not the first, last or worst of them.
ORIGINAL: spence
9) the removal of the SBD4 from the Allied OB (approx 900 airframes between Oct 42 and April 43 (there were essentially no SBDs in the Atlantic Fleet until Oct 1942 when Torch was launched) - since the SBD4 was all identical to the SBD3 the actual a/c is not important, rather the difference is in the overall replacement rate from the beginning of the war.
Not having been a part of the research team for the scenario, it is hard for me to comment. They reviewed production and set the replacement rate numbers as they did. If it is wrong I cannot help you there much. There are mistakes and omissions of lots of things in the game - and the idea that the errors are always in favor of the Japanese is simply false.
ORIGINAL: spence
After all it's only a game. All that would be OK with me as well as allowing the Japanese Player to do whatever is desired within the constraints of production correcting operational deficiencies except that the Allied Player (which was far more adaptable to change than the hidebound IJA/IJN Supreme Command) is stuck making no adjustments whatever to the changed Japanese operational doctrine/tactics.
Japan had one war to fight. The Americans and the British had two. They decided to put Germany first. If you want to take from the ETO and put it into the PTO, then you need to account for that - more British withdrawals, later Soviet Activation, Soviet OOB changes, Soviet collapse, easier Japanese/German cooperation, etc.
Aurorus
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by Aurorus »

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey

e) I am not knowledgeable enough on China to debate it. You are probably somewhat right on this one. However, I'm not sure of that.


The problem with reconstructing the war in China is the source material. There is not much of it. Many of the Japanese war archives were destroyed, and the Chinese records are partial at best.

It has been the bias of Western historians, who have written the history of this war, to believe Stillwell's assessment of the situation: that the Chinese forces were capable of fighting and in good order, but that Chiang Kai Chek was unwilling to commit his forces, both because he was incompetent and because he was more concerned with the post-war situation and the Communists than the Japanese. Chiang Kai Chek insisted throughout the war that the Chinese army was in disarray, poorly supplied, and in no condition to fight. The game, contrary to all the Western historical accounts, simulates the situation in China based upon the assessments of Chiang Kai Shek rather than those of Stillwell: that the Chinese nationalist army was in poor condition.

I am certainly no expert on the subject. However, I am a professional historian, with years of experience, and I have encountered many instances of bias before in historical accounts: where people are inclined to believe the portrait that "their side" paints of history rather than a dispassionate and careful examination of the record. I credit the game-makers, in fact, for their skepticism of Stillwell and their willingness to believe Chiang Kai Shek. Whether Chiang Kai Shek, and WiTP, present an accurate picture of the war in China, I do not know for certain, and I doubt that anyone does. It is a fact, however, that Chiang Kai Shek understood his country, his troops, and his situation better than Stillwell. To what extent Chiang Kai Shek exaggerated the weakness of the Chinese nationalists in order to receive as much Western support as he could is certainly open to debate.
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Yaab
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by Yaab »


Kevin Paul Landdeck "Under the Gun: Nationalist Military Service and Society in Wartime Sichuan, 1938-1945"

https://escholarship.org/uc/item/2j08g4sk
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rustysi
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by rustysi »

I'm sure its been discussed

To death.[8|]
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by btd64 »

ORIGINAL: rustysi
I'm sure its been discussed

To death.[8|]

In 4 threads this year, at least....GP
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el cid again
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by el cid again »

I investigated this about 2016. I was told that it was considered several times, but that a combination
of factors did not result in a funded project. Actually - AE was intended to be an interim project.
After an official announcement that WITP would lose support, and that it was "too expensive" to consider
a full redesign to get things right, I suggested a limited update to generate money. That worked out,
and funded programmer support continued for many years. That AE was selling well probably was one
reason not to launch a new project - it is cheaper just to collect money for the old product. As well,
many features attempted were abandoned (AI in particular) - and many "hooks" were never exploited to
become functional parts of the game. New ownership and the complexity of the project probably doom this
idea entirely. However, the interest in the idea is high enough, it may inspire some project someday.
See the new editor project - wholly surprising to me at least.
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by AndriahBlashkovich »

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey
ORIGINAL: spence
8) the knowledge that most Allied submarines will be all but impotent until at Jan 1943
Funny, AFB's use the same knowledge to hide their subs with those torps until the dud rate improves. I don’t see you railing about the AFB's using the info to their advantage. Now that I think of it, how do I take advantage of that as a JFB? I still escort my task forces , I move what I need to move in the ships I need to move them in, etc. I've read far too much about the dismal performance of US torpedoes to suggest that they should have their dud rate reduced. If it were up to me, the dud rate would not go down until a certain number of torpedos had been duds on attacks. We all possess knowledge that gives us an advantage over the men whose decisions we second guess. This is not the first, last or worst of them.

Not to mention IJN gets horribad ASW performance that never really properly improves, unlike the USN torbs. So the AFB complaint is pretty balanced out, imho, but people tend to forget that little detail. AFBs get less offensive submarine potential at the start of the war, JFBs get less ASW potential throughout the whole campaign.
Anomander Rake
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by Anomander Rake »

This game like most others is favorable for the offensive side.
It is much easier to plan, command and implement from the level of one omnipotent person than many people who argue and often quarrel.
For this reason, Japan is easier at the beginning and the Allies are easier later. Japan's initial advantage is weighed down and weakened and may even be liquidated through mods (I know there are mods acting inversely).
Unfortunately, no one deals with the fact that the same mechanisms work later in favor of the Allies and much more.
Well JFB have their mods and AFB have their complaints. ;-)
My english isn't very good, sorry for it.
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: AndriahBlashkovich

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey
ORIGINAL: spence
8) the knowledge that most Allied submarines will be all but impotent until at Jan 1943
Funny, AFB's use the same knowledge to hide their subs with those torps until the dud rate improves. I don’t see you railing about the AFB's using the info to their advantage. Now that I think of it, how do I take advantage of that as a JFB? I still escort my task forces , I move what I need to move in the ships I need to move them in, etc. I've read far too much about the dismal performance of US torpedoes to suggest that they should have their dud rate reduced. If it were up to me, the dud rate would not go down until a certain number of torpedos had been duds on attacks. We all possess knowledge that gives us an advantage over the men whose decisions we second guess. This is not the first, last or worst of them.

Not to mention IJN gets horribad ASW performance that never really properly improves, unlike the USN torbs. So the AFB complaint is pretty balanced out, imho, but people tend to forget that little detail. AFBs get less offensive submarine potential at the start of the war, JFBs get less ASW potential throughout the whole campaign.

This begs the question 'what do you believe is proper for Japanese ASW improvements?'.

Most AFBs would point out that its quite PROPER for Japan to NEVER improve their ASW capabilities.

The game already provides more than ample opportunity to improve Japanese ASW well above historical capabilities simply through crew experience.
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: AndriahBlashkovich

ORIGINAL: InfiniteMonkey


Funny, AFB's use the same knowledge to hide their subs with those torps until the dud rate improves. I don’t see you railing about the AFB's using the info to their advantage. Now that I think of it, how do I take advantage of that as a JFB? I still escort my task forces , I move what I need to move in the ships I need to move them in, etc. I've read far too much about the dismal performance of US torpedoes to suggest that they should have their dud rate reduced. If it were up to me, the dud rate would not go down until a certain number of torpedos had been duds on attacks. We all possess knowledge that gives us an advantage over the men whose decisions we second guess. This is not the first, last or worst of them.

Not to mention IJN gets horribad ASW performance that never really properly improves, unlike the USN torbs. So the AFB complaint is pretty balanced out, imho, but people tend to forget that little detail. AFBs get less offensive submarine potential at the start of the war, JFBs get less ASW potential throughout the whole campaign.

This begs the question 'what do you believe is proper for Japanese ASW improvements?'.

Most AFBs would point out that its quite PROPER for Japan to NEVER improve their ASW capabilities.

The game already provides more than ample opportunity to improve Japanese ASW well above historical capabilities simply through crew experience.
We are always torn between wanting a historic simulation game vs a competitive player vs player (or AI) game. It comes down to preference. I would agree to Japan getting slightly better ASW equipment (just by tweaking accuracy and effect of their historic weapons) but would definitely complain if Japan got anything over 50% of Allied effectiveness. Part of the game is the Japanese player having to try and protect increasingly vulnerable sea lanes and harvest as much as he can before they get shut down. Without that Japan gets too much harvest and can make huge numbers of aircraft to forestall allied victory beyond March 1946.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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MakeeLearn
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by MakeeLearn »

...tweaking accuracy...

would give a bonus to Japan [;)]



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RichardAckermann
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by RichardAckermann »

It is odd to read some AFBs complain about the JFB ability to improve ASW ability by alot. IIRC, one of the grand campaigns does read "Can you do better than Yamamoto...?"
So improving the efficiency above historic levels seems to be part of the game plan.
All those AFB vs. JFB "you get more than we do" discussions tend to escalate.
I am wondering how much of a bashing I will recieve from both sides once I release the early beta of my project.
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by DanSez »


There are complaints about both sides, that is why I LIKE the idea of HRs to help settle expectations.

The game is great, but it has some limitations and just one point along this line:
there are not 'fatigue points' assigned to sub crews who spend months on the prowl that in real life were not possible.

ok, so that is a small issue. Seems everybody has some,
but to try and address a potential opponents concern, I would offer a swap along these lines:

Some limitations to 4-E bombers (recon, or only bomb dot bases, 10k alt limit)
in return
Japan can only haul fuel and oil in Tankers/Oilers and not try to force the Magic Highway.

That way each player could address a 'grievance' and play their version of a simulation.

The Commander's job is to orchestrate and direct the three major dimensions of combat - space, time and force. Shattered Sword, the Untold Story of the Battle of Midway
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by Anomander Rake »

The problem is that "AFB" ;-) accept only the game in which the Japanese player will play in exactly the same way as history or possibly worse.
My english isn't very good, sorry for it.
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by spence »

Actually my (AFB) complaint is that there is NO POSSIBILITY for the Allied Player to adjust in any way to improved Japanese ASW (among other things). The Allied Player is stuck with the same submarines with the same weapons for the duration of the game (except lousy torpedoes for 1/2 the war). A number of weapons developed and used during the war are not included. Acting as if the improvement of one side in some aspect of warfare will not create the impetus for the other side to improve in that respect is delusional. The Allies demonstrated time and again that they were capable of adapting to tactcal/operational advances the other side made.
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by HansBolter »

A large aspect of the 'Japanese don't get adequate ASW upgrades' hinges on what you are using for ASW.

While Japanese shipborne ASW can mostly only improve through crew experience, the potential for a Japanese player to exploit aerial ASW abounds.

Once again, improvement is dependent more on pilot experience than it is on improved devices, but BOTH sides have the same potential to develop a devastating aerial ASW capability.

I have seen quite a few AARs where Allied players were loathe to deploy subs to historic choke points because of intimidating Japanese aerial ASW capabilities.

Claiming that the Japanese don't get an ability to improve on historic ASW capabilities is patently false.
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by HansBolter »

ORIGINAL: Anomander Rake

The problem is that "AFB" ;-) accept only the game in which the Japanese player will play in exactly the same way as history or possibly worse.


No, we just want the same capacity for improving on historical performance that is granted the other side.

Barring that, we want the other side to work within the same limitations we have.

Fair is fair. Skewed in favor of one side is skewed in favor of one side.

Doesn't get any more black and white than that.
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by InfiniteMonkey »

ORIGINAL: AndriahBlashkovich
Not to mention IJN gets horribad ASW performance that never really properly improves, unlike the USN torbs. So the AFB complaint is pretty balanced out, imho, but people tend to forget that little detail. AFBs get less offensive submarine potential at the start of the war, JFBs get less ASW potential throughout the whole campaign.
If you read a sampling of my posts on this forum, I think most people would consider me a JFB.

I cannot agree with you here.

- IJN ASW should be less effective than Allied ASW due to lesser electronic capabilities. The problem here is that most AFB equate "lesser" technology to "worthless and ineffective". While looking at some of the after action reports here: https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/re ... #contents1 I noted that some reports from subs indicated that the IJN did not have trouble maintaining contact. Just because the sonar was a microphone on a fishing pole does not mean they could not be used to locate a sub.
- The IJN can greatly enhance it's historical ASW performance through in game mechanics of experience, commitment of assets, and air ASW patrols. IJN ASW efforts were so limited that there is a LOT that can be improved. See my post #50 in this thread: tm.asp?m=4357430&mpage=2&key=
- Japanese DC's increase in effectiveness as you upgrade your ships and go from Type 95 to Type 95 mod 2 to Type 2. The IJN ASW mortar is probably overpowered given the difference between it and something like the Hedgehog.

The degree to which ASW increases is not the same, but asserting that the IJN ASW capability is static throughout the war is simply not true.

I also object to the "balance" notion. I'm not interested in "trading" torpedo effectiveness from a balance perspective. I think there are a lot of strong arguments that IJN ASW efforts could have been substantially impacted the loss rate of IJN merchants and Allied subs both. Likewise, there is strong evidence that US torpedoes were shit in the early war.

Side Note: Before this link (http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_ ... MJ_toc.htm) was broken, I read reports

O-01-1 Japanese Torpedoes and Tubes -- Article 1 -- Ship and Kaiten Torpedoes.
O-01-2 Japanese Torpedoes and Tubes -- Article 2 -- Aircraft Torpedoes.
O-01-3 Japanese Torpedoes and Tubes -- Article 3 -- Above-water Tubes.

and was surprised by the number of torpedoes Japan produced. The information there seemed at odds with the oft cited idea that IJN torpedoes were an incredibly scarce resource. Does anyone have those reports in hard copy or electronic form that they can send or post? I'm currently inquiring about getting a complete set (https://www.history.navy.mil/research/l ... ml#library) for myself, but so far I haven't gotten an estimate of cost or time to get them.
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RE: Will there be a War in the Pacific 3 someday?

Post by InfiniteMonkey »

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

ORIGINAL: Anomander Rake

The problem is that "AFB" ;-) accept only the game in which the Japanese player will play in exactly the same way as history or possibly worse.


No, we just want the same capacity for improving on historical performance that is granted the other side.

Barring that, we want the other side to work within the same limitations we have.

Fair is fair. Skewed in favor of one side is skewed in favor of one side.

Doesn't get any more black and white than that.
How do you wish to be able to improve as the Allies? I would contend that there if far more room for Japan to improve it's decision making and therefore it's results than the Allies have. For me, it isn't about balance or fairness, it is about choices. I detailed the kinds of things that could have been done to improve IJN ASW in this thread (tm.asp?m=4357430&mpage=2&key=), post #50.

What capabilities should the Allies have to combat the approaches I outlined?
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