Release Time?

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Hi folks, I've checked in with the production and marketing teams today as we finalize everything with the store setup and do our last QA steps. The most likely release timing is around 11AM US Eastern time / 3PM UK time tomorrow. Obviously that is dependent on many factors but that's our best guess at this point.

Congrats in advance for all the effort made by all concerned👍🏼

[smartspick]

Can't wait!!!!!

[821Bobo]

ORIGINAL: Hanny

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

June 18, 41 Brandenburgers para drop into Suwalki to blow up rail lines along staboltky to Baranovitch, all captured and shot.

Hey Hanny,

First I have heard of this incident, any sources that I can read up on it? Not doubting you, but I'm surprised I never heard about it.

Online try a search for German sabotage team Brandunberger 800, it’s a Russian link with IK-PTZ RU in it, in book form F Kurowoski ( his other books are also excellent, perhaps the best for first hand accounts in his many books) has it in the Division history, The Brandenburgers Commandoes, German elite warrior spies,

Probably more like an urban legend. German commando's tasks were more like to prevent blowing things up, causing chaos and cutting telephone wires.

[lanman]

Thank you very much for providing this info. Very much appreciated! Thanks for all your hard work, and all the best to you and the team for launch and the days to follow.

[spinecruncher]

hmm just in time for me to call in sick tomorrow. or perhaps just have it DL while at work because how will the servers handle all the downloads? Can I purchase a premium download position?

[Light4bettor]

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo:
Probably more like an urban legend. German commando's tasks were more like to prevent blowing things up, causing chaos and cutting telephone wires.

Bobo,

Especially because if they have planned the Bialystok/ Minsk pockets with Pz Gr.2 and 3, what purpose could it serve to damage those rail lines? However, I will reserve the benefit of the doubt and investigate further. I think it is documented that groups of Brandenburgers were across the line pre-invasion to sabotage, but I'm not sure.

And (not relevant, but interesting to me) we have at least one documented case of a German deserter swimming across the Bug to inform the Russians of Barbarossa only hours before the invasion. Though I think with 3 million Germans on the line, there were probably a few more line crossings the night before the invasion that were never recorded (anti-Nazi or pro-Soviet or anti-war German soldiers),(probably either shot on Stalin's orders or summarily shot by the Germans once/if they were recaptured during the day of the invasion).

[Light4bettor]

"The first paratroopers from the 1st Belarusian assault platoon (41 people in the form of the Red Army) were dropped onto Soviet territory on June 18, 1941 near the town of Suwalki to sabotage the Stolbtsy - Baranovichi railway line in parties of 5-11 people. Most of the group was eliminated by the state security authorities."

Hanny/Bobo,

Hanny, the above quote is from that website that you referenced (IK-PTZ RU). Kind of ambiguous as to how they were caught and when they were eliminated but implies these both occurred before the invasion (and that page offers no sources).

I find it plausible that a German trained/backed Belarusian nationalist team (which given the name of the unit, they would presumably be Belarusian nationals) would be dropped behind Soviet lines to low-key cause some infrastructure disruption in that area a few days before the the invasion. It's a small enough operation that the Germans could always feign ignorance to the Soviets I guess.

To illustrate some of the German's pre-war brazenness that adds credence to the above-- What are the estimates on the number of reconnaissance sorties flown by the Luftwaffe into Soviet controlled territory in the months prior to the Barbarossa? Like at least 2000? So it was somewhat blatant in some regards (we know Stalin at the time was informed that the Germans were making relatively frequent reconnaissance flights into the USSR). If the Germans were flying as deep as Kharkov before the invasion (which I believe has documentation in the form of actual aerial photos of pre-war Kharkov military installations, e.g., the famous luftwaffe long-range recon unit led and called by the name of Ro..? forget the name of their leader)), I would guess at least one if not a few of those German reconnaissance air-crews may have made forced landings in Soviet occupied territory and were never heard of again.

[Light4bettor]

Hanny/Bobo,

From a 2011 BBC article based on a Russian (Martirosyan) historian's assertion/research (the 18th of June is mentioned here, though may or may not be related to the parachute drop you mentioned, but I suspect it is in fact the one because by the sentences' context it may have been in Belarusia):

"Ordinary Soviet border guards passed on most of the warnings of the coming invasion", Martirosyan said.

Between 1 and 10 June, they captured 108 enemy spies and saboteurs, he told Komsomolskaya Pravda, and a further 200 or so in the final 12 days before the invasion.

On 14 June, guards on the Belarusian section of the border relayed back to Moscow the correct date of the planned invasion, learnt from two captured saboteurs. The same date was revealed by saboteurs captured on 18 June.

Border guard agents operating on the German-controlled side of the border also confirmed the date repeatedly, Martirosyan found, as did local civilians.

Most poignantly, perhaps, were the Polish women who gathered on the opposite bank of one frontier river on 15 June, cupping their hands around their mouths to shout warnings, in broken Russian, to the Soviet guards facing them.

"Soviets, Soviets, the war is coming!" they were recorded as saying. "Soviets, the war will start in one week!"

Only on 18 June did Stalin order aerial reconnaissance missions to be conducted along the USSR's western borders.

Flying 400km (250 miles) from south to north, one pilot, Air Maj-Gen Georgy Zakharov, reported seeing "frontier regions west of the state border packed with troops... tanks, armoured cars and guns poorly concealed or not concealed at all... roads criss-crossed by motorcycles and what appeared to be staff cars". (end of BBC article excerpt).

I note that the nationalities of the "spies and saboteurs" in the article is ambiguous- ergo, not necessarily German.To me, this brings home the reality that it wasn't just Brandenburgers involved,they most likely had some Belarusian, Ukrainian, Estonian/Latvian/Lithuanian/ Romanian nationals (backed by the Germans) going across and assisting in creating disruption sometime before (and during) the actual invasion. If you believe that 300 spies and saboteurs were caught by the Soviets in the 3 weeks before the invasion, then there had to be more than that sent over, I would presume.( I would also be interested in seeing the Russian historian's research methodology).

That seems pretty rampant/blatant even given the scale of the invasion front. And combined with the frequent German pre-Barbarossa aerial reconnaissance being flown the German pre-war boldness can be perceived as bordering on the absurd. (Of course that is another story).

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

"The first paratroopers from the 1st Belarusian assault platoon (41 people in the form of the Red Army) were dropped onto Soviet territory on June 18, 1941 near the town of Suwalki to sabotage the Stolbtsy - Baranovichi railway line in parties of 5-11 people. Most of the group was eliminated by the state security authorities."

Hanny/Bobo,

Hanny, the above quote is from that website that you referenced (IK-PTZ RU). Kind of ambiguous as to how they were caught and when they were eliminated but implies these both occurred before the invasion (and that page offers no sources).

I find it plausible that a German trained/backed Belarusian nationalist team (which given the name of the unit, they would presumably be Belarusian nationals) would be dropped behind Soviet lines to low-key cause some infrastructure disruption in that area a few days before the the invasion. It's a small enough operation that the Germans could always feign ignorance to the Soviets I guess.

To illustrate some of the German's pre-war brazenness that adds credence to the above-- What are the estimates on the number of reconnaissance sorties flown by the Luftwaffe into Soviet controlled territory in the months prior to the Barbarossa? Like at least 2000? So it was somewhat blatant in some regards (we know Stalin at the time was informed that the Germans were making relatively frequent reconnaissance flights into the USSR). If the Germans were flying as deep as Kharkov before the invasion (which I believe has documentation in the form of actual aerial photos of pre-war Kharkov military installations)), I would guess at least a few air-crews may have made forced landings in Soviet occupied territory and were never heard of again

Pre war SU Secret service archives records, reveal they found 95 German spy rings working inside the SU, and captured and executed a total of 1596, Itz is using the archives opened up since 1990s.

Brandenburgers, under Abwehr command, in January had been instructed by Canaris to form 3 groups walli 1 to 3 for front line recon inside Russia, one for each AG, they got there orders from OKW Auslund/Abwehr, the ones we’re after is Obs Smalschlagers, who was instructed to recruit 2000 Ukrainian nationlists, Under Jary a Ukrainian and Brandenburger Von Lahousen commanding Bttn 800, stationed and trained In Luckenwalde, these began transferring into Russia by end of Jan, Brandenburgers begin forming to act in concert with them in Feb, lahousen, by Order of Kietel, “co ordination of all secret service and military operations to conceal the German build up against Russia” giving Canaris his brief.

Feb 28 Army and Abwehr conference as to how to get the intel it he Army wanted, frame work of submissive operations worked out.Example 1 June 100 Estonians in Russian uniforms, walli 1 was AG North, in operation Erna were deployed from Finland to the Baltic states, 11 June 6 agents went from Krakow to blow up the line between stulponova and Kiev, and were never heard from again. 15 to 18 June large numbers of combat and sabotage teams cross into Russia to operate in the rear, One of which was 2 Brandenburgers in Russian staff uniforms, with orders from Stavka to authorise the transfer of all mil documents to them, which was a success.

By 22 June there were 150 Abwehr/ Brandenburger teams, 3 to 10 men in each, in side Russia waiting to implement their orders, the one we are interested in , “Advance from tip of Suwalki through Augustow to Grodno securing all road and rail bridges”, the blowing up of the rail is to stop its use by the SU as the Germans expect to replace the gauge and not to be using it, and is incidental to the main purpose of securing the bridges.

Kurowoski has first hand accounts of the mission, from survivors, including not having the righ pass word and a fire fight to secure one bridge, 2 men wounded in friendly fire as the Germans come to the bridge and they still in Russian uniforms.

[Light4bettor]

Much more extensive than I had ever imagined. +1 Really illuminates and expands my conception of this conflict. Definitely merits a reassessment and more research on my part.

I had previously assumed that the nature of a locked down security state would be seen as too risky and dissuade the majority of people from trying to infiltrate (or participate in local cells) into Soviet controlled territory (i.e., the probability of being caught, tortured, and killed would be perceived as too high).

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Much more extensive than I had ever imagined. +1 Really illuminates and expands my conception of this conflict. Definitely merits more research on my part.

I had previously assumed that the nature of a locked down security state would be seen as too risky and dissuade the majority of people from trying to infiltrate into Soviet controlled territory (i.e, the probability of being caught and killed would be perceived as too high).

Your welcome, always a red letter day when you find something new, good luck with your inquiry, perhaps so as to not clutter the thread,
use pm?

one last bit, there was a war crimes tribunal and US commission into mass executions by Russia of Nationlists in the days leading up to June 22, there were 4 LW pilots executed at Lowe pre war along with them so we know not all recon sorties went well.

[loki100]

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

Much more extensive than I had ever imagined. +1 Really illuminates and expands my conception of this conflict. Definitely merits a reassessment and more research on my part.

I had previously assumed that the nature of a locked down security state would be seen as too risky and dissuade the majority of people from trying to infiltrate (or participate in local cells) into Soviet controlled territory (i.e., the probability of being caught, tortured, and killed would be perceived as too high).

The Soviet Union was actually more porous than often assumed. The weak spot was the Comintern and the NKVD's willingness to recruit non-Soviets. In the main that paid off for them in terms of penetration of other states partly by those who worked as actual spies but also Commnunists simply prepared to pass information. But other intelligence agencies could use as a means to send perfectly plausible individuals back into the USSR.

[Light4bettor]

Loki, if I follow correctly, some of the non-Soviets recruited by the USSR would sent outside the USSR to spread disinformation and whatnot, and a portion of those would be turned into double agents by the Germans and sent back into the USSR?

[loki100]

messier than that to be honest.

Some Communists fled to the USSR (a lot of Italians and Spanish for eg), were recruited by the NKVD and then returned to the west. You then got people like the UK Cambridge Spy ring who stayed in the West, often never joined the CP, and only fled to the USSR when they were exposed.

So in the main the Soviets gained, they ended up with very good practical intelligence at the level of individual factories in Germany (so they could track for eg the serial numbers of planes/tanks sent for repair) on the one hand or US/UK atomic secrets at the other.

The problem was not everyone who fled to the USSR were what they seemed. Now the NKVD was paranoid, always had the mindset that it was better to shoot someone innocent than allow some guilty to survive etc (which is why many foreign communists got caught up in the purges), but enough functioned for long enough for a decent flow of information to come out. Add on Soviet officials who were prepared to spy (for whatever reason) and, as ever, diplomatic cover was used for a fair degree of spying (Fitzroy McLean's Eastern Approaches has a lot on what he got up to in the mid-30s in Moscow and then in Central Asia). So add all that together, the boring material that could be discerned from the local newspapers (amazing how good they are for intelligence agencies) and so on, and it all added up.

[Light4bettor]

Thanks Loki,

Learning a lot. Thanks. Bringing this period of history to life in my mind and exposing its contours and depth. And of course, the unspeakable horrors, but also the humanity of it. (dont mean humanity in the humane sense, but the participants are made more real). Time for some tea and crackers! lol j/k.

[teddybbeer]

ORIGINAL: Hanny


Feb 28 Army and Abwehr conference as to how to get the intel it he Army wanted, frame work of submissive operations worked out.Example 1 June 100 Estonians in Russian uniforms, walli 1 was AG North, in operation Erna were deployed from Finland to the Baltic states,

Well this is pure propaganda.
Wikipedia has some general information cant link it propely before 10th post [&:], numbers are little off but total 60 men were parachuted in (between 21.07 and 28.07) or by seaborne operation (10.07). All men had finnish uniforms and finnish weapons.

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: teddybbeer

ORIGINAL: Hanny


Feb 28 Army and Abwehr conference as to how to get the intel it he Army wanted, frame work of submissive operations worked out.Example 1 June 100 Estonians in Russian uniforms, walli 1 was AG North, in operation Erna were deployed from Finland to the Baltic states,

Well this is pure propaganda.
Wikipedia has some general information cant link it propely before 10th post [&:], numbers are little off but total 60 men were parachuted in (between 21.07 and 28.07) or by seaborne operation (10.07). All men had finnish uniforms and finnish weapons.

wiki is not a reliable source, you would have been taught this at school and told not to use it as a cite.

In this case for the following reasons, wiki relates only post Declaration of war activity by Finnish units, so does not cover any pre war activity, for that you need to look at German 1941 acounts in which Abwehr equips 100 Officers and OR with Russian uniforms, coms and other equipment and employs them pre war, is sends them in two groups pre war from from Pellingi Island to Kumna Bay, one group is spotted and turns back, they later parachute in after war is declared and operate in Augviidu Tallinn, Narva regions.

I do like the notion that Nazi propaganda was so far forward looking tho.

[Templer_12]

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...

[daft]

ORIGINAL: Hanny

ORIGINAL: Light4bettor

June 18, 41 Brandenburgers para drop into Suwalki to blow up rail lines along staboltky to Baranovitch, all captured and shot.

Hey Hanny,

First I have heard of this incident, any sources that I can read up on it? Not doubting you, but I'm surprised I never heard about it.

Online try a search for German sabotage team Brandunberger 800, it’s a Russian link with IK-PTZ RU in it, in book form F Kurowoski ( his other books are also excellent, perhaps the best for first hand accounts in his many books) has it in the Division history, The Brandenburgers Commandoes, German elite warrior spies,

I'm not going to argue you point, but be very wary with Kurowski.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af59LYC8BFs

https://www.academia.edu/37429738/The_W ... wski_2018_

[Hanny]

ORIGINAL: Templer_12

The pizza delivery service is on the alert.
There's beer in the fridge.
Nibbles are on the desk.
Knuckle of pork with sauerkraut for dinner during the break in combat on the stove.
Corona locked out - all that is missing is...

A hot looking women?.........