Mindfully making mistakes - Mind_messing (S) vs msf567 (A)

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M60A3TTS
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RE: Mindfully making mistakes - Mind_messing (S) vs msf567 (A)

Post by M60A3TTS »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Turn 1 - 22 June 1941
VVS Re-organisation


...

First order of business is to get the battered squadrons off to the Caucuses till they can be brought back up to strength down the road.

Second, get the biplane fighters off the frontline. They seem like free kills for the Luftwaffe at this stage. I may even go a step further and move the I-16s off the frontline as well, but that might make my overall numbers too low.

...
ORIGINAL: loki100

actually the bi-planes are useful, there are two core dynamics with the VVS. If the LW is absent, anything that can drop a bomb is very useful. Remember that any interdiction cancels admin movement and if you have uncontested GS then you gain extra damage over the direct bomb load. If the LW is present, anything (& this includes the Yak-1s) you commit will die (mainly as in A2A combat experience/skill trumps almost every other variable)

Not quite sure what you are advocating here. Convert all bi-planes to bomber skill? Seldom do I find the Luftwaffe absent in places that it matters. Yes, a skill 65 pilot will die in a Yak-1 just as easily as they will an I-153. Still, I'd like to think that the Yak-1 does stand a better chance shooting down an enemy plane than an I-153 when pilot skills are identical. That and the Yak has better range meaning a better chance to catch an unescorted or low escort bomber mission.


ORIGINAL: loki100
Caucasus - why? If an airgroup has experience<national morale (& most will, not least due to taking on untrained pilots to replace losses), then if in the national reserve they will fly training missions to bring their skill/experience up to that threshold. If your problem is a relatively full air group with decent experience but low morale, then yes rotate a bit back on the map and set to rest.

Well....

In theory yes, in practice it's a matter for debate, because of this nugget:

16.7.4 Pilot Training

pilots with experience ratings over 50 will have less chance to gain experience through training than pilots
with experience less than 50.


That means the more pilots you have above experience 50 going into the reserve, the less effective the training program becomes, regardless as to what the Air NM is currently set at. This is important to understand in light of the fact that the great majority of Soviet air-to-air combat kills come from pilots with an experience level of 60 or more. In other words, this training program for the most part won't help your pilots down a whole lot more enemy aircraft.

Also, sending any air units to the reserves prior to Turn 12 must be done with caution. Once regiments drop to size 20, all air regiments in the reserve drop to 20 pilots. Now yes, the number of pilots in the CR always says zero, but remember that there is always a pilot for every plane in the reserve in spite of that. So if you have 2,000 planes in the reserves, you have 2,000 pilots for them. If you then take a regiment with say 5 planes and 60 pilots with all their experience from the map and send it to the reserves, the unit will arrive and then having been capped to the 20 aircraft will subsequently only retain 20 pilots. The remainder simply vanish. So in this example you could be throwing away 40 well trained pilots who will be more skilled than 95% of whatever the "pilot training program" can come up with.

For these reasons it makes a lot of sense to keep air units on map in the early game. And the Caucasus has plenty of airfields to park your refugee aircraft and pilots and await better days.
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RE: Mindfully making mistakes - Mind_messing (S) vs msf567 (A)

Post by M60A3TTS »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

Turn 5 - Jul 20 1941

"Not great, not terrible" is my verdict for this turn.


The North

Fairly quiet up here, as the first probing attacks across the Neva are holds for the Soviets.

Jubjub's comments on the 5 hexes west rings true, as I'm feeling uncomfortable with the salient emerging west of Velikie Luki. Will need to remedy that.

As you can see from the screenshot below, a large number of rifle divisions have arrived back on map from the strategic reserve. They're getting split almost equally between Leningrad and the centre, as they're still the two areas I'm most worried about.

Image

The Centre

Still a bit of a mess here, but I think I can salvage something. Current thinking is to look to reposition as much as possible to the north and north-east of Smolensk, and refocus what's left around Bryansk. I am writing off the pocket south of Smolensk.

There might be the scope for some nice counters here, as there's the odd component of a panzer division that looks very overstretched and very low on combat value

You can also see the crop of Moscow militia divisions getting deployed out to the field in preparation for the battle to come, which I hope will be a ways off yet. The units fresh from the reserve will be railed in to Vyazma this turn to fill out that sector of the front. I quite fancy the terrain to the south-west of Vyazma as a means to block the highway to Moscow, so we will see how that turns out.

Image

The South

The orderly withdrawal continues here, which is very satisfying for me. At some point I am going to need to break the link between South-western and Southern Fronts to pivot South-western along the Dnepr and get Southern Front back further east, but I want to hold off on that for a turn or two if possible.

In short, I just need to accept that I won't be able to keep a continual front line in this region with unit density being what it is.

Odessa held out against the first attack, but I only put a single rifle division in it, so it won't hold against a substantial attack. Bit of an oversight, and will need to learn how to use the city forts for maximum effect for Kiev, Leningrad and elsewhere.

Image

Red Army & Logistics

I had a bunch of rifle corps disband, as well as conversions into combined arms armies so I will need to take a look at the OOB and see what needs done there. So far, Southwestern and Western fronts are my assault HQ's. There are a bunch of battered shell HQ's that are wandering about and will need sent to the reserve to refill and generally just a lot of unready units.

I'd appreciate any advice or being pointed to a primer on (1) Soviet logistics and (2) rebuilding the Red Army. Manpower feels okay at 237k. Total men under STAVKA is a tad under 3 million, but need to keep driving that up.

I have a further question on trucks. That they are important goes without saying, but what should I be looking out for and keeping track of?


To be honest, this already looks lost for the Soviets. Northwestern Front is completely out of position and there seems to be little in the way of an Axis advance to Leningrad.

The center is... well I'll just say I've seen this before. Western Front will disappear, then the nice green divisions (Moscow MD?) and then the Stavka ones. All will be fed in turn into the Axis gristmill before having had a chance to build up on both men and prep points.

In light of the first two issues, I don't think the south will save your bacon. [:(]



Primer on Soviet logistics- Rely on your existing depots. Those on the front lines need to be priority 4, not 1 like you have at Kiev. Set Leningrad priority 4. Refit divisions on depots and obviously set on refit. Don't count on a lot of reinforcements otherwise. Try to keep units on map so they can build prep points, Use the transports of the VVS to resupply units refitting on depots where needed.

Rebuilding the Red Army. Again, I fear that boat already sailed. But as you asked, refit rifle divisions with emphasis of experience levels 50 and above. You need good commanders like Tolbukhin and Rokossovsky in the Western Front armies. Give the assault HQ armies the best artillery. For other info, see my stickied Ten Pearls of Wisdom for Soviet Players in The War Room. I'm told that it has a few redeeming features. [;)]
mind_messing
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RE: Mindfully making mistakes - Mind_messing (S) vs msf567 (A)

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

To be honest, this already looks lost for the Soviets. Northwestern Front is completely out of position and there seems to be little in the way of an Axis advance to Leningrad.

The center is... well I'll just say I've seen this before. Western Front will disappear, then the nice green divisions (Moscow MD?) and then the Stavka ones. All will be fed in turn into the Axis gristmill before having had a chance to build up on both men and prep points.

In light of the first two issues, I don't think the south will save your bacon. [:(]

Primer on Soviet logistics- Rely on your existing depots. Those on the front lines need to be priority 4, not 1 like you have at Kiev. Set Leningrad priority 4. Refit divisions on depots and obviously set on refit. Don't count on a lot of reinforcements otherwise. Try to keep units on map so they can build prep points, Use the transports of the VVS to resupply units refitting on depots where needed.

Rebuilding the Red Army. Again, I fear that boat already sailed. But as you asked, refit rifle divisions with emphasis of experience levels 50 and above. You need good commanders like Tolbukhin and Rokossovsky in the Western Front armies. Give the assault HQ armies the best artillery. For other info, see my stickied Ten Pearls of Wisdom for Soviet Players in The War Room. I'm told that it has a few redeeming features. [;)]

Thanks for the candid response. It does prompt some good reflection from me on what the respective goals should be for the Soviets in the early turns (and how I completely missed the mark when it came to addressing them).

Northwestern Front: Dug in infront of Pskov

Western Front: The Land Bridge and Smolensk

Thanks for the comments on logistics and the signpost to the Pearls thread, will digest that.
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RE: Mindfully making mistakes - Mind_messing (S) vs msf567 (A)

Post by Q-Ball »

Keep going for learning and good to see an old WITP-AE hand in here! You'll find that this game is less complicated than WITP-AE, but ONLY in comparison to WITP-AE. I'm sure you'll get there!

The #1 goal IMO early isn't holding terrain, but preserving the Red Army. Looks like you're losing a ton of units, and you are getting critical for on-map forces, so this is the problem you have.

This may be salvageable, others have pointed out the critical nature of Moscow direction. If you lose Moscow, you're done, not just in VPs but so many other ways. Thankfully the terrain is pretty tough, but be careful of a right hook through Tula.

Your opponent is not making a huge effort on Leningrad, but you are leaving yourself open right now....you need to get troops to Novgorod ASAP. The route to Leningrad is a straight line through the swamps through Novgorod (roughly) and to Lake Ladoga.

Not sure if you have enough units.....if you have more than 200K in the reserves right now you are doing something wrong. You need to get every comrade possible on the map with a rifle in hand.
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RE: Mindfully making mistakes - Mind_messing (S) vs msf567 (A)

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Keep going for learning and good to see an old WITP-AE hand in here! You'll find that this game is less complicated than WITP-AE, but ONLY in comparison to WITP-AE. I'm sure you'll get there!

Yes, in many ways it's quite refreshing, in others less so.

Ground combat feels much more fluid and nuanced compared to AE, but that's a given thanks to the focus of the game.

The air system feels like a massive loss of control compared to what I'm used to with AE, but I don't fancy managing pilot training for the entire Eastern Front.

I have to admit, really not a fan of having switched to U-GO I-GO. The dynamic of WEGO from AE is something I miss greatly.

Not sure I'm a complete pilgrim from the Pacific over to the Eastern Front just yet, but we're getting there. At any rate, it doesn't feel as bad as the Allies in '41, or Japan in '44.

The #1 goal IMO early isn't holding terrain, but preserving the Red Army. Looks like you're losing a ton of units, and you are getting critical for on-map forces, so this is the problem you have.

That probably is the core misunderstanding of my present position. I've been too keen to take fights early to buy some time and cause some problems when I should have been keeping units alive to fight another day.

Part of it is ignorance, part of it is a lack of game sense on my part. Not quite sure of what the right balance is on time/space/fighting power. I'll have a better idea after this game [:)]
This may be salvageable, others have pointed out the critical nature of Moscow direction. If you lose Moscow, you're done, not just in VPs but so many other ways. Thankfully the terrain is pretty tough, but be careful of a right hook through Tula.

Your opponent is not making a huge effort on Leningrad, but you are leaving yourself open right now....you need to get troops to Novgorod ASAP. The route to Leningrad is a straight line through the swamps through Novgorod (roughly) and to Lake Ladoga.

That's actually a comfort to hear. This turn I sent a substantial number of refitted rifle divisions to both sectors you have mentioned here. Hopefully, it isn't too late.

Time will tell...
Not sure if you have enough units.....if you have more than 200K in the reserves right now you are doing something wrong. You need to get every comrade possible on the map with a rifle in hand.

Again, that's good to know. Rest assured that the reserves will be properly scoured next turn!
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