Rules Experts Needed. Shattered Units Destroyed Because of No Retreat.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

The question is whether the rule stating that only the power that installed Vichy may enter Vichy if Vichy is active still applies if Vichy is active and hostile.

This is not clear. I had thought that it was, until Orm pointed out that that is not just a different sentence, but a different paragraph.

The rule states that if Vichy is active, only the power that installed Vichy may enter it.

The next paragraph states that if Vichy is active and hostile the installing major power may enter it and does not have to worry about FTC. It says nothing about other Axis major powers. So does this override the previous rule? I don't see why it would. Vichy is still active, just, in addition, hostile. So I would think that the previous rule would still stand, as it has not been explicitly cancelled.

As I said, I would not be surprised to find that I am wrong here. It would not be for the first time. However, that is how I see the rules read.

(We could always break down and send in a question to ADG to resolve this issue. [:)])

If there are Allied units in Metropolitan Vichy France, all Axis units can enter Vichy. That's RAW. If there are no Allied units there, than only the Axis power who created Vichy can enter if Vichy is hostile.

[rkr1958]

Thanks guys! I knew I came to the right group of experts!

So to summarize my understanding of all this ... and please feel free to correct/disagree/agree as you wish to the following:

(1) German units may enter Vichy without FTC limits because: (a) Germany installed Vichy, (b) Vichy is active and (c) Vichy is hostile (to the CW & USA).

(2) Italian (and even Japanese) controlled units may enter Metropolitan Vichy because both CW and US units have entered Vichy. What's not spelled out is whether or not FTC limits apply.

(3) MWiF is not enforcing FTC limits wrt/Italy. Whether or not this is intentional I do not know. The consensus in this thread so far appears that FTC limits in case (2) should apply. However; in reading through the rules I see a case where they shouldn't.
(a) For example under the section, "Access to Vichy Territory -- While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group." This clearly spells out that FTC applies in this case.
(b) Now under the section, "VICHY FRENCH COLLAPSE -- If an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France before it has collapsed: * Axis units can enter Metropolitan Vichy France without causing a collapse".
(c) One could/might infer that since FTC was mentioned in (a) but not in (b) then FTC doesn't apply in (b), which appears to be how MWiF is coded (intentional or not I dare not guess). So, whether or not there's a bug in MWiF wrt/(b) I guess is up to the beta testers, forum users and Steve to decide?

(4) What I don't believe is in doubt is that the 2 shattered Italian units should have not been destroyed because there was a valid retreat path, albeit through Metropolitan Vichy controlled hexes.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

(2) Italian (and even Japanese) controlled units may enter Metropolitan Vichy because both CW and US units have entered Vichy. What's not spelled out is whether or not FTC limits apply.

I refer you to rule 11.11.5 Active major powers. This because Metropolitan Vichy is the Home Country of Vichy France (a major power). And Italy is an active major power on the same side as Vichy France. And Italy does not co-operate with Vichy France.

11.11 Land movement
...
11.11.5 Active major powers
...
units can’t enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the
foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2);

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

(2) Italian (and even Japanese) controlled units may enter Metropolitan Vichy because both CW and US units have entered Vichy. What's not spelled out is whether or not FTC limits apply.

I refer you to rule 11.11.5 Active major powers. This because Metropolitan Vichy is the Home Country of Vichy France (a major power). And Italy is an active major power on the same side as Vichy France. And Italy does not co-operate with Vichy France.

11.11 Land movement
...
11.11.5 Active major powers
...
units can’t enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the
foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2);

Thanks!

(1) I guess it's up to you guys to convince Steve that there's a bug w/Italy & FTC?

(2) Also, I think(?) we all agree that the 2 Italian units (1st post of the thread) should not have been destroyed?

(3) May I assume that you beta testers following this thread (whom ever they might be) will bring this up to Steve?

[eouellet]

Hi Ronnie,

The 2 Italian units should be destroyed. The system was doing the right thing for the combat sequence, because Italy was exceeding the FTC, and the units could only retreat into VF hexes (virtually), a requirement for them to be shattered.

Normally, this should not have happened if the system was doing the proper check at the end of the movement phase, destroying units in excess of the FTC. Hence, at the combat phase the Italians would not be in excess of the FTC, and could be shattered by virtually retreating into a VF hex.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: eouellet

Hi Ronnie,

The 2 Italian units should be destroyed. The system was doing the right thing for the combat sequence, because Italy was exceeding the FTC, and the units could only retreat into VF hexes (virtually), a requirement for them to be shattered.

Normally, this should not have happened if the system was doing the proper check at the end of the movement phase, destroying units in excess of the FTC. Hence, at the combat phase the Italians would not be in excess of the FTC, and could be shattered by virtually retreating into a VF hex.

Well the issue is that the program doesn't appear to be correctly checking, if checking at all, FTC limits. Before combat Italy had a total of 4 reorg pts and 8 units in metro Vichy. MWiF should never have allowed that to happen in the first place and; therefore, we've decided not to punish the Italian player for this.

[Courtenay]

ORIGINAL: eouellet

Hi Ronnie,

The 2 Italian units should be destroyed. The system was doing the right thing for the combat sequence, because Italy was exceeding the FTC, and the units could only retreat into VF hexes (virtually), a requirement for them to be shattered.

Normally, this should not have happened if the system was doing the proper check at the end of the movement phase, destroying units in excess of the FTC. Hence, at the combat phase the Italians would not be in excess of the FTC, and could be shattered by virtually retreating into a VF hex.

No. FTC only destroys units if they did not start a step in the country. It is legal, for example, for the British to move Gort and two other units into France at the start of the game, and then withdraw Gort. The two units will be fine. (Except for those pesky Germans, of course. [:)]) Also, any number of CW planes based in Britain can support CW troops in France because they will return to base in Britain, thus not ending the step in France.

Since the two Italian units under consideration started the combat step in Vichy, FTC should have no effect on them whatsoever.

FOREIGN TROOP COMMITMENTS
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is destroyed unless:
* It started the step there; or
* It started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.

[eouellet]

Hum... Yeah, you are right.

The FTC rule is only about "entering another country" where there is non-cooperation, that's it. Vichy rules amend the FTC rules, but it is still just about entering another country. MWIF has a number of bugs to fix regarding FTC.

Another example: On MWIF 4.2.3.2 I had an Italian HQ allowed to land in VF Oran in Algeria (and stay there), while the US and CW where at war with Vichy and had units in Algeria. Vichy was not hostile, and Germany was the Vichy installer. Then I got a message that FTC was not met when I tried to get more Italian units there (which is correct). The real problem was that Italian HQ should not have been allowed to get there in the first place, only a German HQ could. This is another bug about Vichy exception to the FTC rules.

[Centuur]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

(2) Italian (and even Japanese) controlled units may enter Metropolitan Vichy because both CW and US units have entered Vichy. What's not spelled out is whether or not FTC limits apply.

I refer you to rule 11.11.5 Active major powers. This because Metropolitan Vichy is the Home Country of Vichy France (a major power). And Italy is an active major power on the same side as Vichy France. And Italy does not co-operate with Vichy France.

11.11 Land movement
...
11.11.5 Active major powers
...
units can’t enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the
foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2);

I don't agree on this. The rule which allows Axis units to enter Vichy territory comes first. That has to do with the way the rulebook is written. What is stated the last, is the rule which cancels all previous rules.

So: when there are Allied units in Metropolitan Vichy France all Axis units can enter. No FTC apply anymore.

[Orm]

ORIGINAL: Centuur

That has to do with the way the rulebook is written. What is stated the last, is the rule which cancels all previous rules.

So where in the rules is this stated?

[Joseignacio]

Anyway in the image, unless some italian unti/s are in a GE stack, I can only see a maximum of 2 HQ +5 (not 6) other non hq IT units. So 1 at least would be safe if this was the case.

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: Orm

ORIGINAL: Centuur

That has to do with the way the rulebook is written. What is stated the last, is the rule which cancels all previous rules.

So where in the rules is this stated?

I would agree with Centuur, from Clarifications:

Q17.4-2

Collapsing Vichy - You may not enter a neutral Major Power on your side. How could Axis units enter Metropolitan Vichy France to collapse it?

Vichy rules override standard neutral entry rules. Date 29/12/2007

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Centuur
So: when there are Allied units in Metropolitan Vichy France all Axis units can enter. No FTC apply anymore.

This appears (to me at least) to be the way MWiF is coded. And, I also agree with your interpretation that FTC doesn't apply to any of the axis given that an allied unit has entered metro Vichy. But in this regard we appear to be in the minority (opinion).

What to me is clear, is that there's a bug where the two shattered Italian units were destroyed instead of "retreated and shattered".

[Joseignacio]

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

ORIGINAL: Centuur
So: when there are Allied units in Metropolitan Vichy France all Axis units can enter. No FTC apply anymore.

This appears (to me at least) to be the way MWiF is coded. And, I also agree with your interpretation that FTC doesn't apply to any of the axis given that an allied unit has entered metro Vichy. But in this regard we appear to be in the minority (opinion).

What to me is clear, is that there's a bug where the two shattered Italian units were destroyed instead of "retreated and shattered".

Well, as I just said count me in that "minority", although I dont think it's a matter of voting considering what Harry said in the Clarifications.

However, were we wrong for some reason, what would have been wrong would be having allowed the extra units in France, not destroying them because of FTC because in that phase they WERE in FTC violation (if we and Harry are wrong).

Another matter is whether you want to compensate somehow the player because it's unfair that he loses 2 units because of FTC when the game should have not allowed him to get them in, in the first place (if we and Harry are wrong) making that loss impossible.

[rkr1958]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
Well, as I just said count me in that "minority", although I dont think it's a matter of voting considering what Harry said in the Clarifications.

+3 now ... [:)]

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio
Another matter is whether you want to compensate somehow the player because it's unfair that he loses 2 units because of FTC when the game should have not allowed him to get them in, in the first place (if we and Harry are wrong) making that loss impossible.

This will (soon) be posted in our AAR.

Our group has unanimously agreed to the following wrt/Axis units in Metropolitan Vichy France.
(1) The Italian HQ-A (Graziani) and II Mtn corps that were destroyed even through they had a valid retreat through Metropolitan Vichy hexes will be "shattered" instead through the magic of editing (If applicable, will do the same for any future land combat).
(2) Italian units will be allowed access to Metropolitan Vichy France without FTC limits, which (rightly or wrongly) is how MWiF is currently coded.

[BrianJH]

ORIGINAL: Centuur
So: when there are Allied units in Metropolitan Vichy France all Axis units can enter. No FTC apply anymore.

Really!? Could you show me that rule that says FTC does not apply anymore?

[eouellet]

I agree with Brian here. The key rules are:

17.4 Access to Vichy territory
However, if an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France, Vichy France becomes hostile to that unit's controlling major power. [That’s how Vichy becomes hostile]

If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits. [If Vichy becomes hostile, that’s how the installing power, and only that one, can enter into Vichy]

17.4 Vichy French collapse
If an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France before it has collapsed:
• Axis units can enter Metropolitan Vichy France without causing a collapse;
[That only says Axis unit can go into Vichy without causing a collapse, but does not say how Axis can enter Vichy]

18.1 Who can co-operate
10. Vichy French units do not co-operate with any major power.
[Can’t be more clear]

23. Index & Glossary
Friendly (a major power or minor country on your side)

18.2 Foreign troop commitments
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is destroyed unless:
• it started the step there; or
• it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.
[That’s how normally a power can enter another power’s territory on the same side when they do not cooperate]

As a work around until the bug is fixed, implementing manually the FTC for Italy (for most games anyway) would be the right to do, i.e. not allowing more Italian units to enter and end their movement in Metropolitan Vichy territory than allowed by the FTC.

[Shannon V. OKeets]

I agree with Brian here. The key rules are:

17.4 Access to Vichy territory
However, if an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France, Vichy France becomes hostile to that unit's controlling major power. [That’s how Vichy becomes hostile]

If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits. [If Vichy becomes hostile, that’s how the installing power, and only that one, can enter into Vichy]

17.4 Vichy French collapse
If an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France before it has collapsed:
• Axis units can enter Metropolitan Vichy France without causing a collapse;
[That only says Axis unit can go into Vichy without causing a collapse, but does not say how Axis can enter Vichy]

18.1 Who can co-operate
10. Vichy French units do not co-operate with any major power.
[Can’t be more clear]

23. Index & Glossary
Friendly (a major power or minor country on your side)

18.2 Foreign troop commitments
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is destroyed unless:
• it started the step there; or
• it started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.
[That’s how normally a power can enter another power’s territory on the same side when they do not cooperate]

As a work around until the bug is fixed, implementing manually the FTC for Italy (for most games anyway) would be the right to do, i.e. not allowing more Italian units to enter and end their movement in Metropolitan Vichy territory than allowed by the FTC.

Let's change the situation and see what we think should happen.
---
With all other aspects of the relationships between the major powers and the number of HQs in Vichy the same, say the combat took place in Occupied France and the only possible retreat hex were into a hex controlled by Vichy. Under this circumstance retreating Italian units into Vichy would be the same as retreating Commonwealth units into France (in, say, 1940). The Commonwealth units exceeding FTC limits would be denied entry as per FTC and destroyed. The MWIF code handles the specific case where both a Commonwealth HQ and a non-HQ land unit have to retreat into France. It always retreats the HQ first, so that the HQ's additional FTC would be available to enable the non-HQ land unit to enter France.

So, the code should enable Graziani to 'retreat', which would move him to arriving as a reinforcement the next turn. The MTN unit would exceed FTC limits (since Graziani is no longer on the map) and be destroyed.

---

Returning to the original situation, either the same result should apply, or the non-HQ should also arrive as a reinforcement next turn. The latter result would depend on whether the non-HQ started the 'step' in Vichy (which it did). But MWIF might have lost track of that bit of information what with removing the units from their hexes prior to effecting the retreat.

This is a low priority bug in my opinion since it doesn't happen all that often.

[paulderynck]

Looking at the game file there are 5 Italian units in Vichy in addition to the two HQs. (2 in Marseilles, 1 with Graziani and the 2 MILs on 61,26) So how does that happen when the HQs only allow FTC of 4? Possibly the units in Marseilles are a breakdown of a corps that was allowed in, and was broken down once there but that seems unlikely, and even then neither of them would have "started" the break down step there (well maybe they did "virtually") so then there's also that conundrum!

But if FTC upon entry is not working that seems more than a low priority bug to me.

[paulderynck]

Balbo is also in France so it's not impossible he helped get units into Vichy and then moved out.