Juat watched the start of saviving private Ryan ...

Charles22 · Post by **Charles22** » Fri Dec 15, 2000 9:19 pm

Thank you Wild Bill, as long as it's a different actor, then you know what the studio's intention was.

If it was the same actor with a different uniform, you don't know if they accidently dressed him in a different uniform, and whether or not they did, if he was supposed to be the same character in the movie. I must say, that one gets a pretty good instinct, over time, for who the key people in a movie are (even amongst the antagonists) based on how dramatic their parts are, the length of them, and of course whether they don't die in their first shots. The German fighting hand-to-hand, really went very largely against these conventions, for him to have been basically what amounted to a 'extra' type part. It was a pretty long scene and it was very intense, two factors which I've found are quite uncommon for someone who doesn't gobble up more camera than that actor did, hence he seems to fit in with our main German, the POW earlier in the movie.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Fri Dec 15, 2000 9:24 pm

I agree, Charles. I think "Steamboat Willie" plays a rather significant and ironic role.

The same German that Captain Miller spares turns around and inflicts a fatal wound on the good captain.

You feel this is going to happen with PFC Rieben (the BAR man) argues with the Captain saying that by letting him go, the potential exists that he will be found "by his own guys" and get put back in the war.

His premonition came true as Steamboat Willie does come back to join the fight.

The second German is also ironic, killing Mellish with the same Hitler Youth knife that Mellish took from a dead German soldier at Dog Green Beach. (Carpazzo found it and gave it to Mellish, a Jewish soldier).

Many little ironic twists within the movie.

Wild Bill

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

[This message has been edited by Wild Bill (edited December 15, 2000).]

ZDose · Post by **ZDose** » Sat Dec 16, 2000 1:28 am

Am I the only one who thinks that SPR is overrated? For me the movie just kept getting worse after the beginning and the end was a disappointment for me, those stupid germans reminded me of those 50's war movies.
Anyway, I wont say SPR is a bad movie, it was ok but I've seen better.

Now, don't butcher me

[This message has been edited by ZDose (edited December 15, 2000).]

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Sat Dec 16, 2000 3:38 am

No butchering, but a question...

Which ones have you found to be "good" war movies in your opinion. It is not a loaded question, but a sincere.

SPR is Hollywood, of course. Maybe I'm getting too emotional in my old age, but I did and do still feel very moved by the saga of war.

The scene with the dog-tags at the crashed glider, or the death of Wade, the Corpsman, or Captain Miller's uncontrolled trembling hand, and when his men notice it, Sgt Horvath, shot to pieces, saying "I just got the wind knocked out of me," frankly moved me to tears.

I find a touch of the realism of war in all of those scenes, not to mention the beach assault itself.

It was interesting. Five veterans of Omaha viewed the film prior to its realism. One went into shock, long term battle fatigue.

The other four wept openly and all agreed that it was the most realistic portrayal of what Omaha was like that they had ever seen. And they were there. Just a side-note.

WB

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

JR · Post by JR » Sat Dec 16, 2000 4:05 am

Originally posted by ZDose:
Am I the only one who thinks that SPR is overrated? For me the movie just kept getting worse after the beginning and the end was a disappointment for me, those stupid germans reminded me of those 50's war movies.
Anyway, I wont say SPR is a bad movie, it was ok but I've seen better.

Now, don't butcher me

[This message has been edited by ZDose (edited December 15, 2000).]

I quite agree. The landing at Omaha is impressing all right, but does not connect that strongly with the rest of the story. The rest of the story is a quite all right action movie, but not THAT good.

I saw "The thin red line" at about the same time, I find it a much better story.

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Sat Dec 16, 2000 7:10 am

I didn't like The Thin Red Line. To me it was too artsy fartsy and sureal. I thought SPR was far superior in its depiction of war.

Just personal taste,

Wiseman

Pantherblaster · Post by **Pantherblaster** » Sat Dec 16, 2000 9:24 pm

Originally posted by Wiseman:
I didn't like The Thin Red Line. To me it was too artsy fartsy and sureal. I thought SPR was far superior in its depiction of war.

Just personal taste,

Wiseman

I must say that SPR is a pretty good film but, personally I think The thin red line is better. It is maybe not as clear in some aspects of good and wrong as in SPR but that's what I like about it. BOTH sides, not one side, were made up of humans not monsters. The average german or japanese soldier wasn't a war criminal, just a guy fighting for his survival. Ofcourse, there are exceptions but I wrote "general" soldier.

I think the best war film is Stalingrad (german)

PANTHERBLASTER

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Sat Dec 16, 2000 10:02 pm

Last evening i watched "The Winter War" for the first time........very impressed. I really think the brutality of the Fin-Russian event was well portrayed. This is a highly recommended movie.

I place "Stalingrad" in the same category.

Pantherblaster · Post by **Pantherblaster** » Sat Dec 16, 2000 11:09 pm

"The Winter War"? never heard of it. Is it a Finnish movie or something? please, tell us more.
PANTHERBLASTER

Panzer Capta · Post by **Panzer Capta** » Sun Dec 17, 2000 3:06 am

The Winter War is a finnish movie, with sub-titles in english. The movie was made in 1990. The subtitles do not detract from it. It is a very intense movie about the brutal struggle that occurred when the Russians invaded Finland in 1939. The Fins were at an incredible disadvantage with respect to weapons and manpower.

The movie has some pretty horrific battle scenes and depicts very well the brutality of war in the trenches. Highly recommended and shouldnt be missed. I would venture a guess that it is the only movie on this subject matter.

It is available through Movies Unlimited.

Greg McCarty · Post by **Greg McCarty** » Sun Dec 17, 2000 5:39 am

Originally posted by Panzer Captain:
The Winter War is a finnish movie, with sub-titles in english. The movie was made in 1990. The subtitles do not detract from it. It is a very intense movie about the brutal struggle that occurred when the Russians invaded Finland in 1939. The Fins were at an incredible disadvantage with respect to weapons and manpower.

The movie has some pretty horrific battle scenes and depicts very well the brutality of war in the trenches. Highly recommended and shouldnt be missed. I would venture a guess that it is the only movie on this subject matter.

It is available through Movies Unlimited.

Also "Belle & Blade" out in New Jersey. There are a number of film web sites that
specialise in these kinds of films at
reasonable prices.

------------------

Greg.

37 mill AA...
can suddenly ruin your day.

orc4hire · Post by **orc4hire** » Mon Dec 18, 2000 2:32 am

SPR was a decent movie, I thought; an amazing opening balancing an execrable ending. The absurd final battle scene aside, it was a very moving movie.
BUT....
I recently watched 12 O'Clock High (my wife's Management class assigned it, of all things). SPR seems to have borrowed a lot of its structure from 12, but I think the older movie was the far superior of the two. There's only 1 battle scene, and it was released in 1948 so it doesn't have the visceral gore impact of SPR's battle scenes, but the punch is still there. 12 O'Clock High. Excellent movie.

AmmoSgt · Post by **AmmoSgt** » Mon Dec 18, 2000 9:20 am

I wasn't going to say anything for a variety or reasons ...but it has been nagging at me ....i have only been shot at a few times most my experience is more along the lines of disarming things but that contraction of focus /time distortion/"get lost in a bubble" right at the beginning seemed real to me... the rest well .....
I know that when you are in charge and folks are shootin at ya or a charge didn't go off like it was supposed to...or some SOB comes up with some damn improvised bomb that ain't followin the rules and you have to deal with it you got to act like you know what yer doin and folks around ya act like they know what they are doin...but i learned to live with a deep and abiding craving for information about the immediate situation that is never available .... this to me is missing in dang near every war movie involving a combat situation or police movie or yer basic domestic firefighting residential structure situation ... i dunno maybe it is just me .... nobody ever seems to talk about this ....ya do it by the numbers ya follow SOP and yer mind just screams inside yer head the whole time ...

john g · Post by **john g** » Tue Dec 19, 2000 2:46 am

Originally posted by orc4hire:
SPR was a decent movie, I thought; an amazing opening balancing an execrable ending. The absurd final battle scene aside, it was a very moving movie.
BUT....
I recently watched 12 O'Clock High (my wife's Management class assigned it, of all things). SPR seems to have borrowed a lot of its structure from 12, but I think the older movie was the far superior of the two. There's only 1 battle scene, and it was released in 1948 so it doesn't have the visceral gore impact of SPR's battle scenes, but the punch is still there. 12 O'Clock High. Excellent movie.

Don't be surprised, my college NROTC class got to see it, it was part of a discussion of leadership vs management. This was nearly 25 years ago, so hopefully they have gotten better training tools, considering how poorly the US Navy has done with some of their management decisions and the lack of leadership from above.
thanks, John.

max · Post by **max** » Tue Dec 19, 2000 4:31 am

Another awsome part of the Movie was " when the tigers were comming and it mademy house tremble " i thought the sound of them rolling in from afar was excellent and erie all at the same time .... it really made you feel like the tanks were just monsters and there was no way you were gunna stop them ...

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Dec 19, 2000 4:57 am

"Memphis Belle" was indeed a far cry from the emotionally stirring scene of the General shaking out of control when trying to pull himself into the hatch of his B-17 at the end of "12 O'Clock HIgh"

I saw that movie for the first time in 1949, at a movie theater in downtown Atlanta Ga as a lad of 11. I never forgot the impact it made on me even then.

I do think, however, if one looks beyond the "Hollywoodishness" of some battles, a deeper message is given, one that is sometimes very profound. I think that is the case with all of SPR.

However you view the battle for Ramelle itself as being unrealistic, the shattering of camaraderie (the Church tower and Sharpshooter Jackson being blasted to pieces in front of the Captain's eyes, the shame of Upham in the face of combat, the horror of wounded men being shot by a swiftly advancing enemy without mercy, the hopelessness of some situations as Miller fires off rounds from his .45 at the approaching Tiger....somehow I find a deeper message in all of that than the glitz of the battle itself.

Wild Bill
------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games

[This message has been edited by Wild Bill (edited December 18, 2000).]

orc4hire · Post by **orc4hire** » Tue Dec 19, 2000 7:38 am

Within the first few minutes of "12 O'Clock High" I understood why my wife's class wanted them to watch it. Interesting that the Navy used it... I see an Army Major has made a study of it as well. (http://www-cgsc.army.mil/milrev/English ... bognar.htm)

WB, I think you in particular may shake your head over this.... My wife is going back to school to finish her degree; we're both in our 30's. Well, they showed "12 O'Clock High" in class, then broke up into groups to discuss it and write a paper on it. Most of the kids thought _there was something wrong with the movie._ They'd never seen one in black and white before. And those special effects, those actual planes and combat footage, that just looked so fake.... and that general was so mean, yelling at those poor boys. (The AFROTC kid disagreed with that last assesement, at least, thank god.)

Kids today....

SPR had it's moments, certainly, and the battle at Ramelle did too, but (and I admit I'm a very tough crowd; I get my movie reviews from [url="http://www.mrcranky.com),"]www.mrcranky.com),[/url] but to me it was so flawed as to not do justice to the rest of the movie. Like fer' example, when Miller is explaining his battle plan, "We'll die all over them here, then die all over them there, then anybody who's left falls back to this side of the bridge and blows it up," my first thought was, "If I were that Sgt. I'd be saying, 'Hey Cap, how about we just go straight to plan B and blow the bridge first?'"
And at the very end, when Miller is popping off rounds with his .45 at the Tiger and his plan has obviously failed, my first thought was, "Oh god, don't tell me Speilberg is going to have the cavalry ride over the hill and some deux ex machina fighter bombers blow up the tank now." Ten seconds later, boom, zoom, there's the cavalry. Sigh.
Ramelle, I think, could have been done better, _should_ have been done better to live up to those first 15 minutes.

Then again I may just be weird. The most memorable character, to me, is the German sniper in the middle of the movie. The guys in the Ranger squad, the nominally important characters, are all a blur to me, but that poor bastard's face, scared, exhausted, alone, but sticking to his post, that's the one I remember.

Wild Bill · Post by **Wild Bill** » Tue Dec 19, 2000 8:50 am

I would have to agree with you here, ORC, on the tactical blunder. Why not wait across the bridge since all the roads funneled into it and hit them there, with the option of blowing the bridge should they begin to cross it?

That would have been my option, but then I was never faced with that kind of decision.
Spielberg never wrote me about this

.

Oh well!

Wild Bill

------------------
In Arduis Fidelis
Wild Bill Wilder
Coordinator, Scenario Design
Matrix Games