Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

A complete overhaul and re-development of Gary Grigsby's War in the East, with a focus on improvements to historical accuracy, realism, user interface and AI.

Moderator: Joel Billings

User avatar
KenchiSulla
Posts: 2956
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:19 pm
Location: the Netherlands

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Post by KenchiSulla »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

From what Joel has said, it's my understanding that there are several things going on with flak and ops losses. First, the flak and ops losses over the course of a turn, or a week or a month are roughly realistic. However, the air system does not generate "sorties" 1:1 compared to historical sorties, so on a per-sortie basis, they look high. Second, there were some reporting issues that mis-reported flak or ops losses is past versions. Third, there is player action and it's easier than it should be to inadvertently fly into a lot of flak if you don't check and it's also easier than it should be to either forget to turn your GS off or to fly outside the range of your escorts and end up with an interception that causes havoc with your bombers. The sum total of this is that I know Joel, Gary and Pavel are continuing to look at saves and where they see an issue they'll adjust, but I don't think flak and ops are far off from where they should be, barring the last case.

On the last case, we plan to make some UI improvements in the future to make it easier for players to see when they have GS on, when it's out of range of escorts, to remind them at the end of the turn if they want to turn it off, to also make it easier to note potential flak issues and (hopefully, this is apparently a much tougher "feature") to make it easier for the AI to avoid inadvertent flak "traps" as well.


Regards,

- Erik

Playing 1.02.11

Hi Erik, appreciate your reaction. And I appreciate it is very difficult to accurately model the air war especially. After all, how do you measure it's impact and success? While playing the game (and manually managing the air component) I've seen:

- Tactical bombers being fairly effective to destroy, damage and disrupt soviet formations (GS role) but also being absolutely shredded (repeatable) by flak - even simple '41 rifle divisions with minimum flak support from higher HQ Is the loss vs effect ratio realistic? If they help achieve a breakthrough maybe it is
- Level bombers rather ineffective @ damaging / destroying ground elements. Okísh disrupting. Losses perhaps acceptable when flying above 14k, but at default altitude (9k) they get shredded by whatever is shooting @ them - as I am still not sure what is......
- Issues with escort (only patrolling fighters, no escorts)
- Issues with intercepts as that does not seem to work, only in turn 1 and during GS by patrolling fighters

The game is still very enjoyable when you accept these issues (for now I am just playing AI) but I am determined to get Joel his data so the team can improve the (air) game further....
AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
User avatar
Erik Rutins
Posts: 39641
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:00 pm
Location: Vermont, USA
Contact:

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Post by Erik Rutins »

I expect further tweaks and improvement to the air game over time based on reports and save files.

Specific to flak and ops losses, I think Joel's post here also deserves attention:

fb.asp?m=5115580
Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC


Image

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.
DeletedUser44
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 4:14 pm

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Post by DeletedUser44 »

Kench, I feel your pain.

The air war is frustrating. The AI control of the air war is even more frustrating.

Case in point - sorties. You have sorties, sort of. But not really. So just ignore them, because they really don't relate to RL sorties.

So now, without sorties as a gauge or benchmark, how are you able to know when OPS are excessive or how to avoid them? Oh wait, it relates to travel(%) and fatigue.

But you can't set AC unit limits on AC travel(%) or fatigue either. ARGH!

Go to the Commander's Report and try to pull up a list of OPS losses per battle. (hint - you can't. closest thing is ability to go to battle location on map, and inspect battles one-by-one... oh the drudgery...)

-----

All I can say is that I think they are aware and are working on it. And so far, they have made noticeable progress on a lot of game features. Was not too long ago there was NO UI Scaling at all.
User avatar
HardLuckYetAgain
Posts: 8989
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:26 am

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

The Air War is why I will not play a game at all at the moment. Was also major contributing factor of not continuing the one I had. I will wait for the Pavel overhaul.

I would also LOVE to see setting of range setting on planes. If I want my fighter to only go 3 hexes I want to be able to set that. I don't want to have range circles where the fighter is set to only to intercept on another mission a bazillion miles away. This way my fighter is set to 3 hexes and that is it, PERIOD!!!
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
User avatar
KenchiSulla
Posts: 2956
Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:19 pm
Location: the Netherlands

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Post by KenchiSulla »

Thank you Erik, posted my views in the tech support thread
AKA Cannonfodder

"It happened, therefore it can happen again: this is the core of what we have to say. It can happen, and it can happen everywhere.”
¯ Primo Levi, writer, holocaust survivor
User avatar
xhoel
Posts: 3339
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:46 pm
Location: Germany

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Post by xhoel »

+1 on the range feature.

WitE 1 did a really good job with that and AFAIK became quite liked by players. That would actually allow us to use GS during the enemy turn, since you can tell your air groups how far to engage.
AAR WITW: Gotterdammerung 43-45
tm.asp?m=4490035
AAR WITE: A Clash of Titans 41-45
tm.asp?m=4488465
WitE 2 Tester and Test Coordinator
DeletedUser44
Posts: 417
Joined: Thu May 27, 2021 4:14 pm

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Post by DeletedUser44 »

In essence, you don't really have traditional AC in WiTE2 right now.

What you really have are flying cats that you try your best to herd - without any real tools to constrain them.

So, they end up going where-ever they want - and eat up all kinds of fuel / ammo / supplies in the process.

It is kind of funny in a weird, sadistic way.
User avatar
heliodorus04
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:11 pm
Location: Nashville TN

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Post by heliodorus04 »

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

In essence, you don't really have traditional AC in WiTE2 right now.

What you really have are flying cats that you try your best to herd - without any real tools to constrain them.

So, they end up going where-ever they want - and eat up all kinds of fuel / ammo / supplies in the process.

It is kind of funny in a weird, sadistic way.

That's signature-worthy!
I approve!
Fall 2021-Playing: Stalingrad'42 (GMT); Advanced Squad Leader,
Reading: Masters of the Air (GREAT BOOK!)
Rulebooks: ASL (always ASL), Middle-Earth Strategy Battle Game
Painting: WHFB Lizardmen leaders
User avatar
HardLuckYetAgain
Posts: 8989
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:26 am

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

In essence, you don't really have traditional AC in WiTE2 right now.

What you really have are flying cats that you try your best to herd - without any real tools to constrain them.

So, they end up going where-ever they want - and eat up all kinds of fuel / ammo / supplies in the process.

It is kind of funny in a weird, sadistic way.

Our Air war game!!!

Image
Attachments
explodekitten.jpg
explodekitten.jpg (52.41 KiB) Viewed 216 times
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
User avatar
HardLuckYetAgain
Posts: 8989
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:26 am

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

German air war, notice the radius of effect! We think it is but it isn't

Image
Attachments
explodingkitten.jpg
explodingkitten.jpg (60.47 KiB) Viewed 216 times
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
User avatar
HardLuckYetAgain
Posts: 8989
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 12:26 am

RE: Extreme Axis Air Losses ?

Post by HardLuckYetAgain »

Of Course the Soviets have the best kitten Nukes!!!!

Image
Attachments
Nukekitten.jpg
Nukekitten.jpg (46.1 KiB) Viewed 217 times
German Turn 1 opening moves. The post that keeps on giving https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 1&t=390004
Post Reply

Return to “Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2”