A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by RangerJoe »

Born Free

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0060182/
Married couple George Adamson and Joy Adamson have long lived in northern Kenya for George's work as the senior game warden of the region. One of George's primary responsibilities is to deal with dangerous animals that may be chronically threatening to humans, livestock and/or crops. It is in this vein that George and his staff end up killing a man eating lion and its lioness, resulting in their three young female cubs being orphaned. Although difficult to begin, George and Joy are able to wean and take care of the three cubs, who they adopt as pets. But soon, they know they have to provide a more suitable environment for the cubs, namely sending them to Rotterdam Zoo... that is except for the smallest, who they have named Elsa and to who Joy in particular has become attached as the emotional fighter among the three. As Elsa grows into lioness maturity, George and Joy provide her with greater freedom away from their property, which may get her into trouble as a largely tame animal. Ultimately, John Kendall, George's boss, directs them to send Elsa to a zoo like they did with her sisters, especially as with anyone in George's job he is soon being reassigned. Joy cannot bear the thought of Elsa being locked up for the rest of her life, believing that they can reintegrate her back into the wild instead, something that had never been done with a tame lion. John gives them three months to accomplish this task, which most specifically involves getting Elsa to be able to kill for food, other creatures which up to this point she has seen only as fellow playthings, and to be accepted by other lions, most specifically mate with and provide food for a male partner while standing up successfully to female competitors. —Huggo

So it would not be wrong to state that this was the start of reintroducing wild creatures back into the wild.
After several unsuccessful attempts at reintroducing her back into the wild, Elsa begins to get the idea of killing to feed herself. When she goes into season, the Adamsons make one more attempt to release her into an existing pride. They find a lion who seems to be receptive to her and set her loose. Unfortunately, the lion already has a lioness in his pride, and she attacks Elsa. This time, however, Elsa fights back and, after Joy fires off a shot, the three of them run off together. A year later, after being away in Britain, the Adamsons return to Kenya. They set up camp at the spot where they last saw Elsa and spend the next week looking for her, but she never shows. Forced to give up the search, they return to base camp to prepare to fly back to Britain. Suddenly, Joy hears lion sounds and is overjoyed to see Elsa come walking out the bushes accompanied by three cubs. After a fond reunion in which Elsa makes it clear that she hasn't forgotten them, her mate calls to her, and Elsa and the cubs join him. In a voiceover, Joy says, 'We saw her many times again...born free and living free. But to us, she was always the same...our friend Elsa.'

It does not get much better than that . . .
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by RangerJoe »

A double post thanks to an ASP 500 . . .
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Consider this.

Would you want to return to a forum that where, since you're departure, you have been publicly pilloried? Worse still, an exercise that has actively been empowered by the moderation team deciding on a course of non-enforcement to "let people get off steam".

I certainly wouldn't, and my current disgust is certainly a key motivating factor right now.

You know, the evidence of Alfred's behavior is right there. All I was asking him to do was agree to follow the rules. He doesn't have to come back if he doesn't want to. A lot of folks have been warned publicly and received one week bans and had no problem returning to the forum.

Before I posted these copies of already available public posts Alfred made to explain my decision, I kept hearing from you that Alfred had done no wrong. Now the problem is that I've posted them publicly so that he would be too ashamed to return? I'm sorry, but the efforts to sweep that behavior under the rug and try to ignore it or enable it is what got us here and what is the biggest single cause of division within this community.

In my opinion, the real issue here as to why Alfred has not returned is that Alfred thinks he did absolutely nothing wrong and/or knows that he is unwilling or unable to follow the forum rules.

Regards,

- Erik


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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by BBfanboy »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

What is an "Elsa?" Are people using that term as an insult or to insinuate an insulting behavior? Or is it a suggestion that they become a fierce predator and prey on their enemies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0NQh3pPv7o
Elsa in "Frozen" is a Princess who has had to keep the secret of her power hidden all her life. Events lead to her accidentally using that power and she flees the palace to live on her own. She decides not to treat her powers as a handicap, but an asset. At that point she breaks into the song "Let It Go" as she can freely unleash the power for the first time.

So pulling an Elsa - would be letting go of the negative view and letting things be as they are.
No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Consider this.

Would you want to return to a forum that where, since you're departure, you have been publicly pilloried? Worse still, an exercise that has actively been empowered by the moderation team deciding on a course of non-enforcement to "let people get off steam".

I certainly wouldn't, and my current disgust is certainly a key motivating factor right now.

You know, the evidence of Alfred's behavior is right there.

There's all sorts of behaviour on show, in the selfsame threads you have linked.

I know you've explained your rationale, but I'm still at a loss as to why there's zero intention for wider action.

Or, to be more accurate, why there's only the willingness to act in a single instance.
I'm sorry, but the efforts to sweep that behavior under the rug and try to ignore it or enable it is what got us here and what is the biggest single cause of division within this community.

To be perfectly honest, the effective absence of any moderation efforts got us here. I say that without malice, as a simple statement of fact.

As for sweeping it under the rug, that's certainly one way you could view what seems to be the current strategy.

If the overall strategy is to fire off a couple of week long bans around, ignore the egregious breaches of the forum rules, plaster over the cracks and boldly go forward, then I am sceptical that this will offer an effective solution in the long run.

My logic for this is:
- this approach is superficial at best, and ignores the wider field. The best term to my mind is a damage control exercise rather than resolving the underlying issues.
- it reinforces negative behaviour; a number of individuals have "gotten away with it", in the sense of breaking forum rules with zero consequences.
- furthermore, the optics of those comments, with no moderator intervention visible, will to some extent "set the tone" for the wider forum unless challenged. This is mitigated somewhat by displacement of newer posts, but the core issue remains.
- it does absolutely nothing to challenge the underlying norms that have developed; the digital version of being told to "play nice".

Now, I'm obviously not informed as to what the intentions are going forward, and my inferences from your comments here and elsewhere may be off the mark, so happy to be corrected and challenged on any of this.
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
Consider this.

Would you want to return to a forum that where, since you're departure, you have been publicly pilloried? Worse still, an exercise that has actively been empowered by the moderation team deciding on a course of non-enforcement to "let people get off steam".

I certainly wouldn't, and my current disgust is certainly a key motivating factor right now.

You know, the evidence of Alfred's behavior is right there.

There's all sorts of behaviour on show, in the selfsame threads you have linked.

I know you've explained your rationale, but I'm still at a loss as to why there's zero intention for wider action.

Or, to be more accurate, why there's only the willingness to act in a single instance.
I'm sorry, but the efforts to sweep that behavior under the rug and try to ignore it or enable it is what got us here and what is the biggest single cause of division within this community.

To be perfectly honest, the effective absence of any moderation efforts got us here. I say that without malice, as a simple statement of fact.

As for sweeping it under the rug, that's certainly one way you could view what seems to be the current strategy.

If the overall strategy is to fire off a couple of week long bans around, ignore the egregious breaches of the forum rules, plaster over the cracks and boldly go forward, then I am sceptical that this will offer an effective solution in the long run.

My logic for this is:
- this approach is superficial at best, and ignores the wider field. The best term to my mind is a damage control exercise rather than resolving the underlying issues.
- it reinforces negative behaviour; a number of individuals have "gotten away with it", in the sense of breaking forum rules with zero consequences.
- furthermore, the optics of those comments, with no moderator intervention visible, will to some extent "set the tone" for the wider forum unless challenged. This is mitigated somewhat by displacement of newer posts, but the core issue remains.
- it does absolutely nothing to challenge the underlying norms that have developed; the digital version of being told to "play nice".

Now, I'm obviously not informed as to what the intentions are going forward, and my inferences from your comments here and elsewhere may be off the mark, so happy to be corrected and challenged on any of this.
Erik made this quite clear. In one thread, Erik started the thread with post #1, your first post was #5 and you quoted part of Erik's post #1. You might not believe what he wrote, but he certainly informed you.
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by mind_messing »

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins




You know, the evidence of Alfred's behavior is right there.

There's all sorts of behaviour on show, in the selfsame threads you have linked.

I know you've explained your rationale, but I'm still at a loss as to why there's zero intention for wider action.

Or, to be more accurate, why there's only the willingness to act in a single instance.
I'm sorry, but the efforts to sweep that behavior under the rug and try to ignore it or enable it is what got us here and what is the biggest single cause of division within this community.

To be perfectly honest, the effective absence of any moderation efforts got us here. I say that without malice, as a simple statement of fact.

As for sweeping it under the rug, that's certainly one way you could view what seems to be the current strategy.

If the overall strategy is to fire off a couple of week long bans around, ignore the egregious breaches of the forum rules, plaster over the cracks and boldly go forward, then I am sceptical that this will offer an effective solution in the long run.

My logic for this is:
- this approach is superficial at best, and ignores the wider field. The best term to my mind is a damage control exercise rather than resolving the underlying issues.
- it reinforces negative behaviour; a number of individuals have "gotten away with it", in the sense of breaking forum rules with zero consequences.
- furthermore, the optics of those comments, with no moderator intervention visible, will to some extent "set the tone" for the wider forum unless challenged. This is mitigated somewhat by displacement of newer posts, but the core issue remains.
- it does absolutely nothing to challenge the underlying norms that have developed; the digital version of being told to "play nice".

Now, I'm obviously not informed as to what the intentions are going forward, and my inferences from your comments here and elsewhere may be off the mark, so happy to be corrected and challenged on any of this.
Erik made this quite clear. In one thread, Erik started the thread with post #1, your first post was #5 and you quoted part of Erik's post #1. You might not believe what he wrote, but he certainly informed you.

That, you'll find, was a little bit of irony. Intended to provide a wee bit of self-deprecation to shift the tone before concluding my post.
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by witpqs »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

That, you'll find, was a little bit of irony. Intended to provide a wee bit of self-deprecation to shift the tone before concluding my post.
I see. Peace, out. [8D]
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by Erik Rutins »

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
I know you've explained your rationale, but I'm still at a loss as to why there's zero intention for wider action.

Necro-moderation, going back through old threads and posts and then taking action, is a bad idea for many reasons and through many examples in other forums as well as back in the distant past here has only caused more problems than it has solved.
Or, to be more accurate, why there's only the willingness to act in a single instance.

There's a lot more in terms of moderation actions than what you've seen. Many PMs, e-mails, warnings on other forums, etc. In terms of this forum, requests for moderation are the best way to make sure we see something. The last two such resulted in two moderation actions. Both of those ended up causing a lot of community shock, which is why we're here discussing.
To be perfectly honest, the effective absence of any moderation efforts got us here. I say that without malice, as a simple statement of fact.

There has been some moderation, but it has been light and it was mainly on the shoulders of one volunteer community moderator who shouldn't have had all that as his responsibility. I take your point and take personal responsibility for that. However, that's changing and I've been trying to explain that.
As for sweeping it under the rug, that's certainly one way you could view what seems to be the current strategy.

If the overall strategy is to fire off a couple of week long bans around, ignore the egregious breaches of the forum rules, plaster over the cracks and boldly go forward, then I am sceptical that this will offer an effective solution in the long run.

No, that's not the strategy. I'm well aware of the breaches of the rules, but it has also been the practice here in times when the community feels we have made a mis-step to give a chance to "speak freely" without fear of moderation for a time. I did that for a bit after Alfred was banned as well. That time in that thread will soon come to an end and I'm making sure everyone has fair warning what the rules are and that they will be enforced.
My logic for this is:
- this approach is superficial at best, and ignores the wider field. The best term to my mind is a damage control exercise rather than resolving the underlying issues.
- it reinforces negative behaviour; a number of individuals have "gotten away with it", in the sense of breaking forum rules with zero consequences.

I've explained my thoughts on this above. This is not establishing a new permissive normal, but rather trying to address any confusion or misunderstanding and then enforcing the rules as written and intended. I don't like to blindside people, but this is effectively the last fair warning.
- furthermore, the optics of those comments, with no moderator intervention visible, will to some extent "set the tone" for the wider forum unless challenged. This is mitigated somewhat by displacement of newer posts, but the core issue remains.
- it does absolutely nothing to challenge the underlying norms that have developed; the digital version of being told to "play nice".

I would certainly prefer that everyone "play nice", but if that's not possible then interventions and enforcement of rules without favor will follow soon enough.
Now, I'm obviously not informed as to what the intentions are going forward, and my inferences from your comments here and elsewhere may be off the mark, so happy to be corrected and challenged on any of this.

I think I've explained my intentions. I'm hoping this is the calming of a storm and a step towards reducing some of the bad behavior and the negativity and frustrations both with our actions and with some forum members' posts, but depending on the choices each individual makes as far as whether to follow the forum rules or not, it could end up differently.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by Lokasenna »

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

What is an "Elsa?" Are people using that term as an insult or to insinuate an insulting behavior? Or is it a suggestion that they become a fierce predator and prey on their enemies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0NQh3pPv7o
Elsa in "Frozen" is a Princess who has had to keep the secret of her power hidden all her life. Events lead to her accidentally using that power and she flees the palace to live on her own. She decides not to treat her powers as a handicap, but an asset. At that point she breaks into the song "Let It Go" as she can freely unleash the power for the first time.

So pulling an Elsa - would be letting go of the negative view and letting things be as they are.

OT, but +1 internet points to you for unintentionally hilarious post of the day.

The funny part is having to explain a relatively ubiquitous pop culture reference. I don't even have kids and have never seen the movie (or... hardly any movies these past 10 years) and even I knew it [:D].


On topic, and as to why I find this to be an extremely good thing - I'm looking forward to actually being able to report problem posters as things come up in the future. I'm not interested in necro-moderation. People who cause problems will either continue to do so and can now be reported with an expectation that action will be taken (win), or they'll stop their problematic behavior and play by the rules again (better win).
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

What is an "Elsa?" Are people using that term as an insult or to insinuate an insulting behavior? Or is it a suggestion that they become a fierce predator and prey on their enemies?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0NQh3pPv7o
Elsa in "Frozen" is a Princess who has had to keep the secret of her power hidden all her life. Events lead to her accidentally using that power and she flees the palace to live on her own. She decides not to treat her powers as a handicap, but an asset. At that point she breaks into the song "Let It Go" as she can freely unleash the power for the first time.

So pulling an Elsa - would be letting go of the negative view and letting things be as they are.

OT, but +1 internet points to you for unintentionally hilarious post of the day.

The funny part is having to explain a relatively ubiquitous pop culture reference. I don't even have kids and have never seen the movie (or... hardly any movies these past 10 years) and even I knew it [:D].


On topic, and as to why I find this to be an extremely good thing - I'm looking forward to actually being able to report problem posters as things come up in the future. I'm not interested in necro-moderation. People who cause problems will either continue to do so and can now be reported with an expectation that action will be taken (win), or they'll stop their problematic behavior and play by the rules again (better win).

I knew that there was a Disney movie "Frozen" but I never saw it nor researched anything on what it is/was about. I don't have cable TV here since for the cost of that and internet would be beer and pizza money for a month - even just the plain cable could keep me in beer and pizza for a month. I know where I am better able to spend my money, especially with free Wifi (no, no spell checking so it does not come out WIFE!)

But if you get a chance to see Born Free and have not done so, I suggest that you watch it.

But at least I got someone to laugh so the day is/was not wasted . . .

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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by dr.hal »

Sadly I have to admit, I had NO idea what an Elsa was or is. I guess I really am old. Sigh.
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by Wirraway_Ace »

Thanks, Erik.

I follow your logic and support the approach.

Alfred, in all my interactions, was both precise and polite, though there were plenty of instances where he wasn't to others--polite that is--he was always precise. I have little doubt as to why this occurs. There are certain people that you don't challenge. My father was that type: a surgeon who had to be supremely confident and competent every day of his adult life. My first company commander was a similar personality: wicked smart with a sharp tongue. If you want to get along with this type of person, and they are absolutely worth the effort, you don't challenge them. Instead, you talk less (or write less), ask good questions and listen (or read). We have a lot of this type on this forum. I could name ten without thinking very hard. My philosophy is to argue less and read more. I don't always agree with them, but that doesn't matter. The breadth and depth of their knowledge is astounding. As for Alfred, I hope he will rejoin the forums. If not, I understand. I have all the guides he sent me over the past ten years and I prefer to remember him that way.

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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by mattj78 »

Well done Erik you have my 100% support with the actions you took with Alfred who was out of control for a long time as i previously posted all he needs to do is follow the rules its that simple
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by Zovs »

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
I have all the guides he sent me over the past ten years and I prefer to remember him that way.

Could you throw all those into Word and post it here?
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by Wirraway_Ace »

ORIGINAL: Zovs

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
I have all the guides he sent me over the past ten years and I prefer to remember him that way.

Could you throw all those into Word and post it here?
With a little editing, yes. There are some Alfredisms amongst the narrative.
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by RangerJoe »

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

ORIGINAL: Zovs

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
I have all the guides he sent me over the past ten years and I prefer to remember him that way.

Could you throw all those into Word and post it here?
With a little editing, yes. There are some Alfredisms amongst the narrative.

Those things are called features . . . [;)]
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by CaptBeefheart »

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

There are certain people that you don't challenge. My father was that type: a surgeon who had to be supremely confident and competent every day of his adult life. My first company commander was a similar personality: wicked smart with a sharp tongue. If you want to get along with this type of person, and they are absolutely worth the effort, you don't challenge them. Instead, you talk less (or write less), ask good questions and listen (or read). We have a lot of this type on this forum. I could name ten without thinking very hard. My philosophy is to argue less and read more. I don't always agree with them, but that doesn't matter. The breadth and depth of their knowledge is astounding. As for Alfred, I hope he will rejoin the forums. If not, I understand. I have all the guides he sent me over the past ten years and I prefer to remember him that way.


Well said, Wirraway Ace. I was going to write something along these lines and I'm glad I waited as I wouldn't have said it as well as you have.

Cheers,
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by Zovs »

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace
With a little editing, yes. There are some Alfredisms amongst the narrative.

Thank you kindly.
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RE: A discussion about the Banning of Alfred

Post by Yaab »

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

A double post thanks to an ASP 500 . . .

Matrix are stat-padding posts for their ASAP 1,000,000 POSTS campaign,
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