Why is SS so much better?

Flashfyre · Post by **Flashfyre** » Mon Dec 25, 2000 8:34 am

I think what most everyone has lost sight of is that, in any organization, be it military or civilian, there are good people, average people, and bad people.
Good people strive to uphold the rules of the organization, average ones just do what is asked of them, and bad people attempt to use the rules for their own ends.

The SS, like all organizations, had all of the above. The same is true of the US Army and Marines in Vietnam, and yet the My Lai massacre occurred. Do we condemn the entire Army, or even the Division/Brigade/Regiment those men were members of? No. We condemn the actual men, those who pulled the triggers, for what happened.

Stop making generalized statements....recognize that a majority of the SS units were soldiers. Elite ones, well-trained, motivated (albeit by an ideology that we find abhorrent), and fanatical in their defense of the Reich.
Can we say that the Rangers, or the SEALs, are any less? Put yourself in the shoes of an Islamic nation, having been taught from birth about "The Great Satan". Would you admire these same US elite fighters, if they invaded your country? Probably not. You would call them "child-killers", and believe every bit of propaganda your nation broadcast about them.

It's time to look at history with an un-jaundiced eye. There were both admirable and detestable acts committed by units of ALL nations during WWII. Applaud them, villify them, denounce them, but do so as individuals.....not as groups. To do so is to stereotype, a short step from racism.

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sven · Post by **sven** » Mon Dec 25, 2000 12:08 pm

They ate their Wheaties? Every serious nation needs elites and there were not enough Brandenburghers to justify it being the main elite body.....

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Give all you can all you can give....

Fabs · Post by **Fabs** » Mon Dec 25, 2000 5:25 pm

This is a very complicated subject.

The aspect of whether SS units deserve the "elite" rating or not is in itself controversial.

The SS divisions after 1942 tended to receive the best equipment, and more of it.

Some of the older panzer Divisions had very experienced cadres by then (Leibstandarte, Das Reich, Totenkopf, Wiking), other, newer formations performed well (Hohenstaufen and Frundsberg, Hitlerjugend).

Some of the foreign units (the Belgians under Degrelle in particular) were also good performers.

There were a large number of formations that performed from indifferently to badly for all sorts of reasons.

So it is probably wrong to represent the SS in the way that they are represented in the game.

Victorhauser's solution seems sensible enough, as it enables the representation of Wehrmacht elite units as well.

These are not represented at all in the game, unless you select SS units and then change each name.

As far as the wider, political discussion is concerned, I don't think that anyone disputes that the "elite" and not so elite SS formations were more frequently associated with combat atrocities than other Wehrmacht units.

This does not mean that every soldier and officer was a criminal, but it probably justifies the charge that as an organization the Waffen SS were also criminal.

It also does not mean that they were the only military organization that committed atrocities.

These were committed by all combatants. The Western Allies differed from the Germans and Russians, who also committed atrocities liberally (although the records were suppressed, as they were on the winning side), because they did not condone them and tried to limit them.

The Russians used the atrocities committed by the Germans against their population as the justification for some of the excesses they admitted to, although they were at it in Poland long before the Germans attacked in 1941.

Waffen SS divisions that committed atrocities on the Western Front after 1943 blamed their men's experiences on the Eastern front for their excesses.

There seems to be no justification for atrocities committed by the SS Totenkopf division in France in 1940.

The attempts by Russian and German apologists to justify the behavior of their forces must be seen as mere propaganda.

In both cases, the atrocities were motivated by political fanaticism and, in some cases, the need to brutalize in order to discourage hostile activity in occupied areas.

Political, along with religious fanaticism, has often featured through human history where the greatest inhumanities have occurred, and is certainly not a German prerogative.

Violent repression of conquered populations is also something that was not practiced exclusively by Germans, or the Waffen SS.

The Second World War differs from most previous and some subsequent conflicts in the way in which the victors sought to criminalize aspects of the behavior of the vanquished.

To the extent to which they took care not to behave in the same way while the war was being fought, I believe that this constitutes a positive step for mankind.

More recent history suggests that the progress in this enlightened direction is far from steady, and that nations that participated in the war and managed to keep a clean record when they were "liberators" behaved differently and less honorably subsequently, when their role was more in line to that of "occupier".

Even the victims of the most atrocious of the German's crimes are showing ruthlessness now that, through the accidents of history, they have become an occupying power.

All my comments above refer exclusively to the behavior of soldiers in combat zones or in transit to and from combat zones.

Topics like the Holocaust and how the Germans repressed the populations in occupied territories away from the front are entirely different and merit separate discussion in different forums.

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Fabs

Fabs · Post by **Fabs** » Mon Dec 25, 2000 5:41 pm

As to the way in which Hitler managed to wangle his way to total power, it is naive to base any argument on whether he was elected or appointed.

Hitler was probably the best and most ruthless political manipulator that ever existed.

He took advantage of a very volatile political climate and of any break that was thrown at him.

However, there were two main elements that greatly helped him in his criminal enterprise:

- the Weimar Republic's institutions were very weak and poorly balanced.

- The German public was indifferent to how these institutions were being first manipulated and then removed by Hitler and the NSDAP.

Strong, balanced institutions enjoying strong public support (to the extent that the public will go to any length and pay any price to defend them) are the only guarantee that a Democratic order can be preserved.

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Fabs

Alby · Post by **Alby** » Mon Dec 25, 2000 7:58 pm

Originally posted by Belaja smert:
The question about the elite status of the SS has been discussed before. Main reason they are considered elite is that german army needs to have elite troops and the OOBs are already full so separate elite troops are not an option.

Belaja smert

I thought FJ troops were "elite".They get +10 experience bonus same as SS troops, so actually germans have 2 sections of "elite" troops