Im Old....any one else?

Huffy · Post by **Huffy** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:49 am

Jess,...your and I are almost a match....I was in PA. though....models...tons of them......Panzer general,Blitz,...Squad Leader....all AH games....
Then went to gaming conventions.....had a blast....
And ...now....SPWAW....
Take care....
Huffy

rich12545 · Post by **rich12545** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:59 am

Heh, you guys are mostly a bunch of kids.
I got out of the army in '69 after a three year stint. Didn't get into gaming (except the card game war and also chess lol) until computers came out. Played the very first war games from SSI on my Apple II. There was Naploleon, Bismarck, Ambush and others. SPWAW is now one of my favorites.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 4:49 pm

Funniest thing I have ever done with a wargame has to be giving my squad leader a whuppin in basic with my modest little had to take some of it with me Squad Leader game.

Guys take this warning seriously. DO NOT eeeeeeeeever beat someone like your Squad Leader with a game that screams out he was just beaten by a nothing at his own job.

Yeah I sure regretted doing it. I also didn't get my game back till after training

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 6:42 pm

Les - "Avalon Hill really to me was more about games on map boards than it was about anything else." Not sure of the reference here. Most wargames ARE played on mapboards - there were a few which used an abstract "track" kind of system, but not many. Are you saying AH wasn't really about wargames? Doesn't seem likely.

Or ... do you mean war "game" versus what SPI called "simulation"? Remember the furioius debate on that one? When I bought the Isby "Air War" (SPI) I remember having to spend three days just reading the rules. We eventually decided that not even Isby knew what some of the rules meant. Air War was so "detailed" we half expected to come across a pre-flight inspection walk around, including kicking the tires.

IIRC, in the S&T monthly magazine there was a chart which had slots for various game aspects including complexity. For a long time, there wasn't another sim or game on the chart even close to Air War. Course, my friend who had flown 400+ missions in 'Nam kinda laughed at some of the assumptions made in Air War, but it was one of a kind.

I am used to being a dinosaur, it gets that way when a person has been around for a while. These days, I suppose anyone who guns down a zombie-like Nazi in Return to Castle Wolfenstein is a "wargamer". To begin with, "gamer" meant something different than it does today, if the term has any meaning at all currently, which I am beginning to doubt.

I will point back to the days of the PacWarriors as one example: We were the guys who were hooked on Gary Grigsby's Pacific War - in it's original form I believe it was one of the greatest computer wargames produced, in some aspects a work of near genius. I will always feel that way about GGPW. Some of would spend dozens and dozens of hours preparing game aids for the benefit of fellow PacWarriors. Our group included professional historians and a curator for the Arizona Memorial at Pearl Harbor. Many naval officers, both on duty and retired.

These were GAMERS. Also not incidentally among the best people I have ever met - as are a number of people here on the Matrix Forum. I suppose a lot of this is really old fashioned. Don't really care if that is true. Time has not diminished what we had with the PacWarriors, and the values they represented.

As to embarrassing a cadre who you will be answering to on a daily basis, youth can excuse the excess. Once. Beyond that, it's as Casey Stengel said about a certain rookie in spring training, "Only moderately bright ..."

Best from here,

Bing

cadmus · Post by **cadmus** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 7:48 pm

Hmmm ... I wonder where else you'd find a bunch of guys bragging about how old they are?

In my case, I discovered AH's Blitzkreig at the tender age of 31 (delayed adolescence) ... in 1971. A revelation! After working over a number of the AH Classics, I found SPI's S&T magazine, in time for Winter War and Oil War, circa 1973. Then the glory years of paper maps and cardboard counters ... SPI, Yaquinto, Clash of Arms, GDW and all the rest. Some of my fondest memories are of a group of 6 to 8 buddies clustered around a 4X8 sheet of plywood on saw horses every Thursday night for months .. working on Highway to the Reich. Wellington's Victory! Richard Berg's Civil War Series! La Bataille de la Moskova! Then .. another revelation ... Squad Leader ... and then ASL!

I love SP:WaW. And I'm dead certain I'll love Combat Leader even more. But I sure do miss the group gathered around the gaming table. The interplay .. the banter .. the groans. PBEM and H2H help, but still ....

Anyone remember the Satchel Snatch scenario in Sniper? The interminable die roles and complex tables in AH's Tobruk .. which somehow managed to be engrossing in spite of that?

Oh dear ... I've got myself all a twitter .. where's my toddy and my cane?

Jim1954 · Post by **Jim1954** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:18 pm

I sure remember Tobruk. My buddies and I bought 3 copies just so we could cover the dining table with cardboard. Heh, didn't matter, we just ate take out pizza anyway. I don't think we ever finished a whole game.

Star Fleet Battles was a lot like that, too. Up all night just to play 3 or 4 turns. Andromedans were tough with a capital T.

Yaquinto's Ironclads was another one that wore your wrist out. Pick up Clive Cussler's book "The Sea Hunters" for some excellent reading about those old ironclad battles.

First computer wargame was a silly little thing called B-1 Bomber, I think AH put it out. Nothing but text but at the time it seemed cool.

I still remember watching Vic Morrow in Combat in black and white.

Much simpler times.

Yeah, I'm old too.

tmac · Post by **tmac** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:19 pm

OMG...I forgot Sniper! Those paper paralelogram vehicles/tanks, and charting all the planned movements! that was a fun game. Also, Tobruk did require an incredible degree of bookkeeping. I still own all my old games, from AH Panzer Leader/Blitz, through glory days of SPI (quad games, ziplock bagged games, through Highway to the Reich, etc, etc), I have 2 Yaquinto Armor series, and my personal fave for modern war, the entire series of Assault and Sands of War from GDW. These were great fun to play. I just enjoy SPWAW more than I ever did those. This forum does substitute for the missing interaction between friends over the table, but I don't miss the bookkeeping, endless sorting of counters and stacking them, and feline induced hurricanes/earthquakes (or even human clumsiness caused) ruining days or weeks of prep and play. This forum is a great way to interact, and I eventually hope to make good friends here. This place seems to go waaaay beyond this game that brings us together, with people providing advice and support to their friends here who need it. This really is a tight community of good people (just a little obsessed)

Orzel Bialy · Post by **Orzel Bialy** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:23 pm

You are correct sir...this forum is unlike most I have visited, hence the Virtual Band of Brothers banner.

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:35 pm

Bing "mapboard" equals map on a board , that's all I was saying.

I think you might not have realised I was saying that most companies use map "sheets". Avalon Hill was probably the one and only company that made a big fuss over mounted maps.

In my early gaming days, I was taken with the ability to play a few hours, then pick the separate "boards" up and store them on a shelf stacked on dice between boards.
It was very handy.

The only thing wargamingish different from AH and SPI, was they were different companies.
I bought SPI games knowing they might be less expensive in some cases, and not as lavish in chrome. But I never thought they were lesser products.

Still got some favourites. Bulge is a great SPI title of modest expense (well at the time it was inexpensive).

Mapsheets are not a negative feature, you just can't pick them up the same way, nothing more. Storing a Europa game merely takes specific planning.
But it is just as difficult these days to store a historical ASL module which uses a map sheet.

Boards have largely been left behind. It is a rare company that will go the expense of mounted boards.

I can have a mounted board easy though.

First you laminate map. Then you use sturdy book binding tape to make the custom cut linked 1/8 thick plywood panels fold. Then you glue laminated map to custom cut 1/8 panelling.

A lot of fuss admittedly. But considering the hoops computer gamers will go to, to enjoy a computer program, I don't think it is too odd really.

M4Jess · Post by **M4Jess** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:37 pm

In (around) 1982 My best friend Don (some of you guys met Don at Aberdeen) and I laid out all of the ASL boards on our apartment floor...It was hugh! We could not even reach the middle boards!:eek: We both owned 2 full sets of counters..

I was the American...:rolleyes: and Don the Germans...we used both FULL sets of counters!

A turn lasted hours..and the battle was set up for weeks...no partys..no girls..no visiters at all...STAY OUT we have the mother of all battles going on here...

ahhhh those were the days!:)

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:43 pm

Aaarrrrgh Jess you are as bad as my old wargaming opponent.

He was always insisting on DYO, because properly thought out balanced scenarios were never good enough for him hehe.

So we always ended up with altogether to large to many map panels major slug fest games that never finished.

It's easy to cure though. Did it to a buddy once.

He bought a cool unit with cool SS and neat tanks etc.

I bought aaaaaaaall the garbage Russians I could afford worst to best in that order.
I massively outnumbered him ooodles to one in squads.

It's simple math. One SS squad even with cool special abilities purchased, is no match for say 15 lunatic conscript squads with no leaders and nothing but a passion for shooting at everything in sight hehe.
Each one of his squads had to deal with it's own human wave assaults hehe.

Oh I won by the way and he learned his lesson

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:44 pm

Oh by the way Jess

Back to work, I have run out of scenarios to test! hehe

M4Jess · Post by **M4Jess** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:53 pm

Oh..I have another great one...I was the Russians..Stalingrad using the #1 board...I had a 10-3 3 Guards Squads..and 3 HMGs on a 3rd level building hex...man my LOS was great and I was hosing the Germans down!:D

until:(

a German 150mm round landed a CH !!:eek:

The building went down killing all of my units...and to top it off...
The rubble landed on top of 3 tanks with Guard riders:eek:

I was holding in reserve....

I got drunk that night.....

M4Jess · Post by **M4Jess** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:58 pm

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1
Oh by the way Jess

Back to work, I have run out of scenarios to test! hehe

sending two off two to WB tonight...:p

Major_Johnson · Post by **Major_Johnson** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:02 pm

Man, in 69 I was 13! I still have a GI Joe from that era, but it's missing all accessories. All he has left is his camoflauged fatigues. But I do still have all of my plastic soldiers, tanks, jeeps, halftracks etc! American, German, Japanese and Russian! I keep say I'm saving them for my son, if that day ever happens. But then I don't know if I'll let him play with them anyway!!!

They're almost antiques!

tmac · Post by **tmac** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:49 pm

Still got all those too Major...mostly Marx Civil and WWII soldiers and accessories. My GI Joe's were annihilated by 2 younger brothers. Still have a pile of models and wargames too...wish I could find more time for them, but SPWAW is too addictive.

tmac · Post by **tmac** » Tue Jul 22, 2003 11:54 pm

My one regret is never having played SL or ASL. I was always kinda interested but it was always way too rich for my blood to get involved. At those times I was a high school or dirt poor college student, and those games seemed to require a huge initial investment and then endless add on mods. I might have been tempted further but I didn't have any buddies who would have been into it too, so it just wasn't worthwhile. Oh well, there are pc surrogates, I guess, from what I've read here.

Bing · Post by **Bing** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 12:24 am

Les - Now I understand. Yes, so far as i know AH was the only major publlisher who issued maps on stiff cardboard backing. I don't think I said anything about SPI being inferior - they were different, I bought many of their releases, still have a few, of which a couple have (unmounted maps) second to none. Like I said, at one time I subscribed to both S&T and Moves, which I would not have done had I felt they were inferior.

I was referring to the arguments which used to rage about "game" versus "simulation"; for that matter I have seen guys come close to physical violence over the miniatures versus board issue. All seems pretty silly now. We're a far more tolerant group, I think. Play what you want the way you want, I always did both, miniatures and boardgames.

I still think paper Harpoon is the best simulation of all time, for several reasons, but it doesn't translate much as a "game" in conventional usage of that term. Beer and pretzels paper Harpoon never was. There is a strong, albeit rather small, group of paper Harpoon devotees.

I took the easy way out for using mapsheets. I had several pieces of plywood in various sizes. Choose the one which suits the maps to be used. Lay down the maps. Cover the maps with a large clear plastic. Drive thumbtacks through the plastic and maps into the plywood. Instant mounted maps, some of them pretty good size. The clear plastic prevented the maps becoming worn; some of the SL boards were in places rubbed clean of ink.

The clear plastic method also worked well with miniatures such as Command At Sea: I used grease pencils to outline land masses and other features. A bit of work, but it looked fairly good.

We could also plot ship movement and torpedo tracks directly on the plastic with grease pencils. Playing the IJN in Savo sound scenarios, you almost had to have something like this: There could be a dozen or more torps in the water at the same time. Used the same methods with other naval games too.

Bing

dlazov · Post by **dlazov** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 1:38 am

M4 Jess wrote:

Oh..I have another great one...I was the Russians..Stalingrad using the #1 board...I had a 10-3 3 Guards Squads..and 3 HMGs on a 3rd level building hex...man my LOS was great and I was hosing the Germans down!

I have a better one (imo), me and my ASL buddy were doing the Red Barricades grand campaign. It was on the third campaign game. I set setup HIP my 9-2 leader, with 3 6-2-8 and 3 hmg's in the center of a gutted building. On the outside of the gutted building I laid ap mines and stuck some ? conscripts up. My opponent 'zapped' the conscripts and moved two 8-3-8's into the mine hex and got one K1. After he cleared the mines and finished off the conscripts he cautiously moved into the gutted bulding searching and rolling crap. He got cocky and I sighed. He moved a stack with a 10-2 leader and 2 8-3-8's with mmgs right next to my HIP. With beads of sweat from holding my fire I waited. He moved right into my hex. I said "Wait", and at TPP fire I proceed to k1 and k2 his squads. I kept "rate" and his leader took a task check and failed. After I 'zipped' his point attack he brought in a StuG and trashed me. Never-the-less it was so great to see his face when I said "wait" and proceeded to stick that big stack there.

In a rematch I set up two German killer stacks with a 9-2 leader and 2 4-6-8 squads each with a hmg. Altogether it was either 48 at normal range or 28 with just the heavies -2. He setup a bunch of 4-4-7 in fortified buildings across the street. I 'zapped' three stacks before loosing rate. The next turn I wasted a 76mm art piece and then here comes his OBA Russian Rockets. He rolled box cars on one of my stacks and a 4 on the other. Killer stacks were dead.

Ah, those were fun days.

cadmus · Post by **cadmus** » Wed Jul 23, 2003 2:35 am

Originally posted by tmac
My one regret is never having played SL or ASL. s Oh well, there are pc surrogates, I guess, from what I've read here.

Don't waste a lot of energy on regrets. ASL was a truly great experience and I, and a lot of others, had some great times with it. But I fully expect Combat Leader, although it won't be an ASL clone for the computer, will give you much the same degree of satisfaction and pleasure without ... 1. the endless hours spent reading and trying to memorize the rules, 2. endless legalistic arguments over rule interpretations 3. the constant struggle to find someone as obsessed as you to play with.

The future looks bright!

Im Old....any one else?

Tmac

True Story