Four Seasons is Updated

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GaryChildress
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by GaryChildress »

Ormand wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 8:37 pm
GaryChildress wrote: Sun Feb 04, 2024 7:12 am Hi Ormand. Are there any subformation graphics that you would like me to make for the 4 seasons mod? Maybe for a future update at some point? I believe the mod uses my original pack of subformation graphics. I can add to that pack in the same style as it is a little different from the style I"m using in my current graphics renders.
Hi Gary,

I have to apologize for being so SLOW getting to you. As you can imagine, I have been a bit tied up with the code. Adding a few things and fixing some stuff. A new version with some minor fixes is coming.

Overall, I like what you are doing! I am trying to see what the view would be etc. I should probably download and try to fit them in to see how like them. I am fairly partial to the style that was used in the DC series. Partly because it used some other background graphics to hide the bottoms, etc., to make them fit into the picture a bit better. This certainly on a good track to make graphics for different variants, upgrades, etc.
No worries. If you don't have any immediate needs, I'll get back to work on my new lineup coming out. :)
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by CaptBeefheart »

That's it: Action Cards. I forgot all about them. I'll revisit them next time I fire it up.

The two JAS11's of course have different pictures (one a pseudo-Stuka, the other a fighter), so it's not too hard to keep them apart. The only issue is with lists, like an aircraft production list. You'll see two JAS11's spelled out on the list and have to click one of them to get the visual. Not a big issue.

Thanks to you, Gary and Ernie for keeping this great game alive.

Cheers,
CB
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by GaryChildress »

Ormand wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2023 11:13 pm I have finally reworked the Four Seasons mod. Hopefully, I have worked out all the kinks. This mod requires the ATG Phoenix Version 2.40.057 or higher.

As before, installation requires three files. The first contains the main graphics files, the second the officer pictures, and the third is contains the actual scenario .at2 files. It is done this way because the graphics file is too large for me to upload on my own, and I need Vic to do it for me. It will mostly stay static with the at2 file getting most of the updates as well as some updates to graphics files.

The files can be found on the VR website:
Graphics: https://www.vrdesigns.net/scenario.php?nr=259
Generals Project: https://www.vrdesigns.net/scenario.php?nr=270
at2 files: https://www.vrdesigns.net/scenario.php?nr=260

After installation a mod file will be installed, and if you select it and start up, ATG welcome screen will have Four Seasons and Phoenix Random games as options.

This is a major revision of FourSeasons with some changes from the previous version.

The scale and action point costs are inspired by the GDW Europa series and SPI's War in Europe series.

Map Scale: 16 mi/hex (26 km/hex)
Turn length: 7 days
SFTypes:
Ground units = 1 company (equivalent)
Artillery = 9 guns
Airunits = 1 Squadron with ~ 9 planes
Naval = 1 ship

Units are generally division sized with 60 stackpoints.

Features of note.
1. Units will be generated for each regime once the "Start" button is pushed and the scenario has begun.

2. Artillery units have a range of 1 hex. For this reason, they have been largely incorporated into their parent divisional formations, where they provide support. They have a high initiative, and will fire first on offense.

3. Models are allowed for Human players only in the "Use Models" variant. In this variant, Models are used for tanks, fighters, and dive bombers. Models for Light Tank I, Fighter I, and Dive Bomber I will be generated automatically, and assigned as appropriate.

4. AI regimes will build airfields near the front once it is at war. In addition, airfields can be built on flat terrain (plains, fields, desert) in any season provided that there are no storms present.

5. If the map is more than 30% water, shipyards are active, and the AI will attempt to build shipyards.

6. Officers can attain a card affecting fighter missions or bombing missions. Officers can gain the Air Marshall feature.

7. Features for officers are influenced by the cards they receive. For example, an officer with the "Charge" card has a higher chance of receiving the "Infantry Leader" feature.

8. Strategic transfers use the DC rule where the CAP cost is computed using the distance between the initial and final positions of the transferred unit and does not include the cost to transfer the unit to the HQ providing the CAP.

9. Compared to a NewDawn and RisingDawn the AI factory algorithm has been altered with the goal of preventing the AI from overbuilding factories. In addition, a rudimentary prioritization has been implemented.

10. The stack limit is 120 points from any hex for attacking and 180 points for defense.

11. RuleVar(928) is active and a stack-limit for individual units of 60 stackpoints is imposed. Units with more than 60 stackpoints will face a penalty in combat.

12. An AP cost is implemented for loading/unloading units to a non-port hex. The cost is 0.01*(Weight of the Unit).

13. Naval units pay (and must have at least) 20 AP to conduct air operations from aircraft carriers.

For random games, you can select from 13 different peoples and similar to Phoenix game, 22 different climates. Each people type has officers in the "Generals Project".

Random games also give a choice of nine variants:
1. Aggressor Nations: Tensions are running high and regimes are engaged in a period of frantic diplomacy. In the game, some regimes are selected to be aggressors and aiming to use war to achieve their goals. The game starts with a diplomatic block in place that will be lifted (randomly, but usually turn 3-5). For the most part, half the regimes are aggressors. At start, the player will be prompted for an option to select the aggressor nations. Entering -1 will select aggressor nations randomly. Entering 0/1 selects the first/second regime as aggressors, and subsequent aggressor nations assigned alternatingly. Aggressor nations have reserves and resources mobilized at start. The nonaggressor nations will receive some reserves when the diplomatic block is lifted and another set of reserves when war is declared on them by an aggressor nation. Players will receive a message indicating how long the diplomatic block will last (negotiations) in weeks. There is a 75% probability the block will end on that turn, a 25% chance it will end the previous turn, and 100% chance it will end on the next turn.

2. Delayed War: Regimes cannot declare war until a later turn when the diplomatic block is lifted. This option is incompatible with Aggressor Nations.

3. Use Models: Human players use models for tanks, fighters, and dive bombers. Models are generated at start for Light Tank I, Fighter I, and Dive Bomber I and placed in units.

4. Start with TOE: A TOE is preloaded for human regimes.

5. Weather with storms: Weather, in the form of storms, occurs during the game, limiting air operations (air operations are permitted during "mud" turns without storms).

6. Random Rail Type: The mod supports two types of rail systems: wide and narrow gauge. The rail type for each regime is determined randomly, except when there are only two regimes, then each regime has a different rail type.

7. Partisans: When a side has been at war and lost approximately 50% of its territory to an enemy faction, partisans will appear at random in occupied territory.

8. More Production: Increases production level for those that want more stuff to play with faster.

9. AS Applied to Resources: Anti-supply rules are applied to the production of resources. To receive resources from a resource hex it must trace an unblocked path (enemy units or forbidden terrain) to the regime's capital. If it cannot, the resources are placed in the leftover queue and will be received when contact is re-established. Resources "travel" in the same manner as regular production but are unaffected by distance. If a regime loses control of its capital, it must regain control by the end of its turn or lose the game. Note that in some random maps, regimes can be split, in this case, resources hexes unable to trace a path will be placed in the leftover queue.
Hi, Ormand. I got locked out of Vic's website after too many login attempts. How do I get that remedied or is there another place that Four Seasons is posted?
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Ormand
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by Ormand »

Hi Gary,

Sure thing. It was actually in need of being updated on the site as well. Here are some dropbox links:

Four Seasons at2 files: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/x14rbc2n ... h3brl&dl=0

The Graphics file: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/v89gjnga ... wya1z&dl=0

The Generals Project: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0wftq2u0 ... zxlou&dl=0

Just everyone be aware that in the future, these links might disappear at some later time.

This version fixes the duplicate model numbers for some models and in games with random rails, you can now build over the other rail type without having to resort to the cards.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by GaryChildress »

Ormand wrote: Sat Feb 17, 2024 9:00 pm Hi Gary,

Sure thing. It was actually in need of being updated on the site as well. Here are some dropbox links:

Four Seasons at2 files: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/x14rbc2n ... h3brl&dl=0

The Graphics file: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/v89gjnga ... wya1z&dl=0

The Generals Project: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0wftq2u0 ... zxlou&dl=0

Just everyone be aware that in the future, these links might disappear at some later time.

This version fixes the duplicate model numbers for some models and in games with random rails, you can now build over the other rail type without having to resort to the cards.
Thank you, Ormand. I had a prior version but neglected to back it up and ended up messing up some graphics I was toying around with. This time I'll keep a backup copy. :oops:
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by GaryChildress »

Hi, Ormand. I've been looking at the 4 Seasons mod. What an undertaking that must have been for you. Thank you for all your work.

Question: There are over 40 people groups in 4 Seasons, however, I can only get the first 14 to show up in a game. Am I missing something or how do you, for example, play as the Irish? Or is that not possible?

Thanks!
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by GaryChildress »

Sorry, I got confused. I count 37 "people groups" and 47 "peoples". How do those two things relate in a game? It appears that only the first 14 peoples and first 14 people groups can be used.

At first I thought it would be cool if we could choose among different "regions" and then each "region" or else "alliance" would have several nations assigned to it and each nation would have a couple of regime names or something like that. Will ATG work that way? If I learn coding, is it possible I could set such a system up?

Thanks. Sorry for my confusion.
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by Ormand »

Hi Gary,

Sorry to be late answering. I have been working on another code for my part-time gig with my former employer. It is being difficult to track down. While the code is actually much smaller than ATG, but it is more complicated in several ways.

It was a bit of work, actually a lot and over a few years. The terrain graphics were interesting, especially figuring out how to tile them!

There is still a bug that I fixed on one computer and apparently got mixed up and didn't get translated into the most recent posted version. It has to do with wounded officers, who heal, but don't get back into the pool. UGH!

As for peoples. Mostly, all those people were added as a way of making the masterfile useful to make scenarios. I have something of a map of Europe at 16 mi/hex scale. So, mostly, all those peoples were added for that reason.

And you noticed that Four Seasons allows 14 peoples, one for each regime that you can have. And you could actually use just about as many people as you want for random games. This was something that I added to the code early on when I started. Previously, regimes were set based on settings in the rulevars. This limited the people to, I believe, eight. This can be overruled via rulevar(920), which specifies a stringlist that contains all the information that was previously in the rulvars. The only limit is the size of stringlist and those peoples existing in the masterfile. To tell the truth, I am not 100% if I rigorously check that they are there or not, to keep designers from crashing things. It has been a while. You would, however, need to make officers (pictures), make stringlists for them, augment the lists for town names, and also for FourSeasons augment the lists for model names. So, I essentially stopped at 14 because I would have to do more work. And, in the end, for some of the people-specific graphics for SFTypes, I reused some.

As for alliances, etc. Yes, I suppose this could be done via events. You would need to write an event that would run before the game, or, during the first round before the first regime gets its turn. In fact, I do this in FourSeasons. In the random game event that is used to set things up, I actually remove all the units except the SHQ and any headquarters the random engine placed because the city is disconnected somehow. So, if you create a FourSeasons game and go to the editor, you will find it to be essentially blank. The garrisons are placed in the first round event. This is because I set the forces depending on the variant you pick. This event is big and sets up the game. So, if you made a variant that had starting alliances, you could run an event here and set them up. This event is only run once as it gets a BlockEvent call at the end.

With the event editor, there are many things that you can do. I also tried to make the events a bit more powerful as I added something like 20 new execs and many more checks.

Unfortunately, coding in the editor is a bit painstaking since it is pick, click, and add, and has a lot of a clicking. It would be nice to have a system where you could type it all in, but this is rather difficult to do as it requires an interface between what you type and the game. And checks for commands, etc. would be needed. Essentially, Vic created a little programming language. It is just time-consuming to write the code. I did add some features to help debug events as well. For one, there is now an exec that gives a pop up message. You can use this to display a variable so that you can check that the vairable is what you think it should be.

I should also note that if you need to modify data in the masterfile, like you discover that movement types need to be all 1 AP bigger or a few need to be changed for a terrain type, or you want to tweak some combat values, you can do this via events. Yolu can write an event to do this and then while in the editor, click the "run now" button. I have done this several times. I have a string list with all the movements (made the first time with an event), and then I have had to tweak them. Then an event reads the stringlist and sets the values. This is much more efficient that going through each data element and setting them.
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by ernieschwitz »

Clarification:

A Masterfile is a file that is used to make another scenario have the same rules/data/events as the Masterfile. As such it is a useful way to for instance make a few scenarios that are identical (mostly) but with different maps. If you don't intend to use all that data, or want to correct some data, that is not available to edit, and make a standalone scenario, then you can start out by loading a masterfile (this is done by starting the editor, only) and then disconnect it, and edit everything. Alternatively you can load a scenario, and then edit that, remembering to disconnect the masterfile, if one is present. You NEED a masterfile for Random games, but do not really need it for stand alone scenarios.
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by GaryChildress »

Thank you for the clarification, and thank you for all your hard work on this, Ormand and Ernieschwitz! Thank you for making a great game even greater. I appreciate it.
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by ghoward »

Hi Gary
I just took up ATG in late Feb after 5 years away from it and started using 4 seasons because it was new. I think the graphics are just marvelous, and I hope to use them with scenarios generated by other masterfiles for my own amusement at some point. I have noticed a few things you might want to put on your list if you are still working on the project. These observations span 3 random games, Sep starts, 30-40 rounds each, depleted lands, stone age, 4 players (1 human), x-large, big oceans (38-47% water), one town, no shroud, resources, limited roads, always set in the editor to be loadable (yes, I cheat, but I know what the AI is doing).
I have noticed the following. I can't build shipyards, the AI builds neither ships nor aircraft nor anything other that Armor and Infantry and a few Engineers (no Mortars, SMG and the like), but does build lots of airfields toward the front. Perhaps that has something to do with the winter season. I expect that the "mountain bazooka" is an oversite, but I really like them as the AI insists upon sending hordes of tanks into snowy low mountains. The weather system seems to work flawlessly, but I have never played long enough to see it during the summer.
I can send you an unlocked save file if you are interested, but I have made several changes to the masterfile and loctypes. I will list them if you want to see one.
This was a great idea. The weather system has a tremendous impact on wintertime play. It really feels like the Russian Front in February. Nice job. Hope you are having fun with it.
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by GaryChildress »

ghoward wrote: Sun Apr 14, 2024 11:40 am Hi Gary
I just took up ATG in late Feb after 5 years away from it and started using 4 seasons because it was new. I think the graphics are just marvelous, and I hope to use them with scenarios generated by other masterfiles for my own amusement at some point. I have noticed a few things you might want to put on your list if you are still working on the project. These observations span 3 random games, Sep starts, 30-40 rounds each, depleted lands, stone age, 4 players (1 human), x-large, big oceans (38-47% water), one town, no shroud, resources, limited roads, always set in the editor to be loadable (yes, I cheat, but I know what the AI is doing).
I have noticed the following. I can't build shipyards, the AI builds neither ships nor aircraft nor anything other that Armor and Infantry and a few Engineers (no Mortars, SMG and the like), but does build lots of airfields toward the front. Perhaps that has something to do with the winter season. I expect that the "mountain bazooka" is an oversite, but I really like them as the AI insists upon sending hordes of tanks into snowy low mountains. The weather system seems to work flawlessly, but I have never played long enough to see it during the summer.
I can send you an unlocked save file if you are interested, but I have made several changes to the masterfile and loctypes. I will list them if you want to see one.
This was a great idea. The weather system has a tremendous impact on wintertime play. It really feels like the Russian Front in February. Nice job. Hope you are having fun with it.
Hi, ghoward.

Thank you for the compliments, however, Ormand is the creator of 4 Seasons, not me. He's the one to address with the compliments. :)
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by ernieschwitz »

ghoward,

I wish I could tell you that the problems you have with the AI and water were something that was just a quirk and easily fixed. It is not, and ATG has from inception had this problem. It simply plays naval warfare badly. Which is unfortunate. :( Also in 4 Seasons ships are very expensive (both in production points, and in materials) so that naval warfare is very unlikely. I would recommend trying land world, as it will give you a better feeling for what the AI is capable of. There it can be really scary! :)
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by Ormand »

ghoward,

I'll have to check the game for shipyards. They are supposed to be allowed only if the fraction of water is >= 25%. They can also only be built on coastal hexes with a road. And, I should say that "coastal" means a hex that is attached to a fairly large body of water, something like at least four hexes across. So, if they aren't allowed, then I probably made a mistake somewhere.

All that said, I didn't put a lot of effort into testing the naval aspects since I tend to find naval games in ATG to be rather dissatisfying. It needs some work, which I am hoping to do for the future game. ernieschwitz is correct that naval units are expensive. Maybe a bit too much. But, note that the game uses 1 week turns. And historically, ships took a long time to build. Bug ships like CVs and BBs took two years to complete! Resources are also meant to be realistic and based on the actual weights of the items. I think one raw/ore is 1 ton. An Iowa class battleship comes in at 48,800 tons. While a Tiger I at 60 tons. you build 1 BB or 800 Tigers.

I have some trouble balancing the airfields. The newer versions tend to reduce the spamming. This was a bit hard to do. I had to determine a zone to build them where they would be useful. It is supposed to calculate how many total airfields it has within the "frontal zone" and stop (or have a low probability) building them. I did this as humans could build them, but the AI could not, which gives humans an advantage as the AI couldn't use airpower near fronts that we some distance from their closest city.

I never play using the conditions you specify, but I did try to make it work for this, and the "civilization" style game. I have mostly played out a war between two countries using the Aggressor Nations variant: two regimes, medium map. I play both the aggressor and "victim". More of the victim to see if it can be won. Usually, it can, but the AI push hard.

There are somethings that don't work as well as I would like them, for example the AI research plan. It seems to ignore medium tanks, so I have to nudge it a little. The AI should now be building and creating somewhat better units. I modified the ATG algorithm a bit to fill units more based on the AIRoleScore. Previously, it would fill units with the highest and often they would go to a few units. It should be doing this better. And, the AI units should not be too large. They will contain artillery, as I intended, and occasionally make artillery units. Given the range of 1 hex, it makes a bit more sense to put them in units as infantry support. An exception are Katusha's, which the Russians tend to build too many of. Originally, these were not "disposable", but it made them too much like artillery, and less unique.

I like the way the weather system works. Some don't, but it will play havoc with your plans if a big storm plops down in your area. Note that roads during a snowstorm have a higher AP cost, which also shortens the supply network. Also note that currently, it is suing the TOE transfer system with rounds. Meaning that transfers go more than just one HQ level. This is useful for multiple HQ levels.
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by CaptBeefheart »

Hello Ormand,

I'm having a great time with your mod. The replayability of your mod is unmatched.

I sent a couple of emails to your Comcast address with probable bugs noted in each one, with game saves attached. On one, some captured cities had growing PP production. In the other, I was unable to create a Jet Fighter model.

Cheers,
CB
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Ormand
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by Ormand »

I got them, and replied. Hopefully, you received my answer, but not from my comcast email, but an outlook account - long story as Comcast and I are having issues with a blocked IP address while I am in Italy.

At any rate, the Jet fighter issue is due to an error I have in the list of Fighter nicknames, I fixed this in your file, and sent it back. When the next patch, which will be a beta, is released, which will also be soon, I'll upload a new version of FourSeasons, which I sent to you as well.

As for the PP going up in the captured cities, this is caused by the cities being too far away from the assigned HQ. All production in cities needs to trace a path to the HQ using "supply" movement (and probably up to 200 AP, but I forget). Since it is too far away, the production piles up in the queue until it can be sent. This is the case with anything produced this way. Now, you can argue that this shouldn't be the case with PP, but it is, and I can argue the other way too. The easiest thing to do is to assign the city to another HQ within range. The PP production will then go to PP slot.

Be aware that a similar thing can happen with resources if you are allowing them to be interdicted. Except, if I recall, the distance can be anything, but a path must be made between the resource and your resource destination (your capital).
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by Ormand »

Oh, I am glad that you like it.
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothin' can beat teamwork -- Edward Abbey
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by CaptBeefheart »

Hi Ormand,

Thanks for your reply and for the emails. I just found them in my spam folder. I should have thought of checking that earlier.

Yesterday I figured out I needed an HQ between distant cities and factories and my Supreme HQ. There may be a better way, but I created a small unit (cavalry battalion in the TOE) with the Supreme HQ as its HQ in the same hex as the interim HQ. I transfer the factory produced items each turn from the interim HQ to the cav battalion. Each turn the cav bn adjusts back to the TOE and sends the excess to the Supreme HQ. It's not elegant, but it works. You might know a better way.

In the meantime, I've discovered another issue: I have armored divisions which show stacking of 60 in the TOE but go as high as 66 on the map (with a % penalty noted), with the same device composition as the TOE. I was starting to investigate it before heading to work this morning. Any ideas on that? I'll send you a save in case that helps.

One final thing that has been a minor issue throughout the game: Some HQs have a tendency to pick up extra devices such as rifle infantry and tanks seemingly beyond what is needed to make up losses. Once in a while I'll create a cav bn under the Supreme HQ and transfer the excess devices to it.

Cheers,
CB
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by ernieschwitz »

In the meantime, I've discovered another issue: I have armored divisions which show stacking of 60 in the TOE but go as high as 66 on the map (with a % penalty noted), with the same device composition as the TOE. I was starting to investigate it before heading to work this morning. Any ideas on that? I'll send you a save in case that helps.
You are probably confusing Stack Points and Power Points. Power Points are what you see on the map, and they are modified by things like Experience, and I think Morale. This means that the power points can show as more than the actual power points. But that is not your problem, the problem is that the Stack Points are more than the limit of 60, that has been set in 4 Seasons.
One final thing that has been a minor issue throughout the game: Some HQs have a tendency to pick up extra devices such as rifle infantry and tanks seemingly beyond what is needed to make up losses. Once in a while I'll create a cav bn under the Supreme HQ and transfer the excess devices to it.
Let me guess. You don't have your HQs in a TO&E formation mold. That is no model for them? I had the same problem, but I believe that Ormand fixed it in this patch that came out, either that, or the next one.
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Re: Four Seasons is Updated

Post by CaptBeefheart »

I think I've figured it out. I looked at an armored division TOE and it has 58 land stack points and 6 arty stack points, for 64. An actual unit based on that TOE, which has a full complement of devices, says it has 64 stack points, and it has a -4% modifier for all devices. So, it appears the land and arty stack points, well, stack.

I also checked Ormand's standard TOEs, i.e. which I hadn't modified, and they add up to 60. Mystery solved. Keep land and arty stack points combined at 60.

EDIT: Correct, I don't use standard HQ TOEs since I need the flexibility. Every army is different. You're right that it would no doubt work well if I did use standard HQs.

Cheers,
CB
Last edited by CaptBeefheart on Fri May 10, 2024 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
Beer, because barley makes lousy bread.
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