Russia...some issues to address

[AlvaroSousa]

I have to make small adjustments otherwise it will throw everything off if the adjustment is too large

The coming patch, already submitted, gives a pretty decent amp. Armies should be converted very quickly.

Where before roughly 1/3rd of the Soviet army were still corps by 1941 now only 5% on average will be.
With no clear weather turns in November 1941 it should drag down the German offensive more.

As a note the Allies should be sending the maximum PPs possible to the USSR.

I couldn't update the game earlier due to the USMC tournaments.

[stjeand]

Well I was not as concerned about November but clear turns in April and October are game changers too...especially in 41 and 42 since Russia is so fragile.

Last game one clear in October ended the Russians in the North...IF that turn had not happened the Russian North would have survived.


Another thought would be...

Rail repair. 0 repair in Heavy Rain, Snow and Blizzard. Germans never EVER have a supply issue except near the end of 41...as they push...and the same in 42.

[canuckgamer]

ncc, those are very interesting changes you proposed for the Russians and am wondering if they can be implemented in a mod? I have had my butt kicked as the Russians even when the Germans invaded in May 1942.

[stjeand]

ncc, those are very interesting changes you proposed for the Russians and am wondering if they can be implemented in a mod? I have had my butt kicked as the Russians even when the Germans invaded in May 1942.

They could...

I know how to do update the stats and make a scenario.

Just wish I could do somethings around weather but the editor has its limits. Al added some weather pieces.
Want to be cautious though...I can tell you once Germany starts to fail in Russia is collapses quickly...too quickly.

So you have to be very careful of too many changes.
When the tide turns it gets really bad for Germany really quickly especially if the Allies are just "waiting"...

[ncc1701e]

Want to be cautious though...I can tell you once Germany starts to fail in Russia is collapses quickly...too quickly.

Yes this is kind of black or white. I have also noticed this. Between mid-1942 and mid-1943, there is no temporary stalemate. Either the Russians are defeated or they are already strong.

[stjeand]

Yes this is kind of black or white. I have also noticed this. Between mid-1942 and mid-1943, there is no temporary stalemate. Either the Russians are defeated or they are already strong.

This is where I wonder if Russians would be given a higher defense and weaker attack from 1941 till mid 1943...then it would swing...

Basically something like...Russian units start with +1 Defense +1 Gun -1 Firepower and they are already down one artillery.
Then the next year perhaps 1942 they get another +1 Defense +1 Gun -1 Firepower...
Then in 43 -1 Defense -1 Gun +1 Firepower +1 Artillery...44 do that again...so they are back to normal.

But that would be VERY tough to actually test.


The one main thing I would love to test is a game that was played just like the actual war...for times when each battle starts. Yes France could take "longer" that would not be an issue but things like...

Greece is attacked by Italy so Germany has to help.
Yugoslavia is attacked in 1941
Germany invades Russia late June 41
Germany attacks Russia June 42...so no major May offensives...

I would love to see how that pans out.

[ncc1701e]

I think the problem comes from the supply system that is much too good.

Historically, after Poland, Germany had exhausted their supplies (fuel, ammunition). In the game, you can invade Yugoslavia in 1939 without problem.

Same thing for France, you can invade just after Yugoslavia, Greece, Bulgaria in 1940.

On the Eastern front, that's why the tempo of operations is so quick. Germany or USSR don't need any kind of pause to prepare another major offensive in term of logistics.

[ncc1701e]

The fact that there is no fog of war for land units is also a factor that helps a lot to encircle other units.

If you had a fog of war, maybe you would hesitate a little more before making completely crazy encirclements not knowing what's behind it. There you see everything. No risk of an unfortunate counterattack.

[canuckgamer]

I agree that there should be FOW for land units "behind lines" although what constitutes that would have to be defined. However I don't want what they have in Strategic Command where if you bump in to a hidden unit the moving unit gets hit hard. Rather the moving unit incurs just the ZOC cost if any like it should.

For both sides it also means that you don't see the concentration of units behind the lines in specific areas which is a give a way to an upcoming offensive. Another significant impact is units set up to defend invasions would not be visible which would mean that invasions would be much more risky. However if the Russians were stronger the UK and the USA would not have to make as many invasions.

[stjeand]

I agree with FOW but that won't be until the next version...

What needs to happen is something to help the Russians that does not overwelm the German forces.

1) Faster conversion to armies.
2) A penalty to Germany when they attack prior to late June. Getting 3 to 5 extra turns, sorry but that changes the entire game. You start late June that changes everything. Check the game I am playing now. Germany is next to Kiev...next to Dneiper river and just outside of Smolensk. IF the Germans were just attacking now the date would be August and they would be crossing the Dnieper. Penalty could be...US join. Russia gain 10 extra armies, even with less experience that would help slow. Maybe something like...4 extra armies per turn attacked prior to Late June. And they just show up, NOT forming.
3) German supply is pretty much no problem in the south due to extra rail repairs when they capture Riga. I used to play a game that Germany ONLY had 3 units to repair rail. Yes it was manual BUT it took time to move their supply. IF the map were larger (scale wise) 1 hex repair makes sense...but honestly it should only be 1/2 a hex of repair per turn...that would slow the advance. The same issue happens when Russia begins to push Germany back...they just are able to push too quickly.
Also NO rail repairs in snow, blizzard or heavy rain. This could slow the advance. Germany sit through the winter and get all their rails repaired so...no effect to supply.
4) Forming units need to come faster...minimum 4 per turn.
5 Weather...RAIN needs to be 100% in April and October. Mud does not exist and that is an issue. Outside those months there should be no clear weather Oct - April in Russia. At minimum rain.


YES Russia should have more production...especially armor but the Allies could easily overwhelm the Germans if that happens to soon. So the balance is tough...

MM and I plan to play a game where Germany attacks in Late June. I bet that fixes a LOT of the balance issues.

You are basically slowing the Germans advance down rather than causing them more damage...that would be step two.

I know Al is working on some weather changes and army conversions...
BUT may have to have a gentlemen's rule NOT to attack prior to late June.

[stjeand]

Another thought around the efficiency spectrum...

What is units get efficiency the level they do now...BUT only get 100% of that if they do not move...every move makes recovering 10% less for each less movement point used?

That way they have to pause to gain more "supplies"

So a unit is at 50% efficiency...with the German armor is quite often.
Normal recovery is 2 x the supply hex value + 4% for HQ X efficiency level. So lets say the unit is in a 5 supply hex. NORMAL recovery should be...+7% (+14% x 50%)..BUT if the armor moves 2 hexes they gain 7% x 80% which would be 5.6%

Infantry would always gain at least 50%...but armor could gain nothing as they drain all their supplies in one turn...

[ncc1701e]

Interesting idea to impact the effectiveness formula. What is happening when the unit is not in supply range but still in HQ range ?

Personally, only if the unit is not in port supply (because our goal is Eastern front here), and if the unit is not in its country (for a more difficult pocket reduction for invaders), I would reduce effectiveness by 10% for each unit without supplies.

Thinking of it, units contain 3 supplies point. When they are cut off, the unit’ internal supply is reduced. But does it have any impact ?

[stjeand]

Interesting idea to impact the effectiveness formula. What is happening when the unit is not in supply range but still in HQ range ?

Personally, only if the unit is not in port supply (because our goal is Eastern front here), and if the unit is not in its country (for a more difficult pocket reduction for invaders), I would reduce effectiveness by 10% for each unit without supplies.

Thinking of it, units contain 3 supplies point. When they are cut off, the unit’ internal supply is reduced. But does it have any impact ?

Well if a unit is out of supply it is out of supply. Does not matter if an HQ is nearby.

A unit out of supply loses 10% on the first turn...plus 1 supply point.
I am NOT 100% on the second turn but I think it is a 25% efficiency drop and another supply point.
Same on the 3rd...then str hits occur on the 4th turn and on...

But I am only 100% sure on the 10% loss on turn 1. I can't say for the others...I don't often track that.

[ncc1701e]

Thanks. Your supply findings are interesting to show how a combination of HQ plus railhead is too good.

Reducing rail repair rate plus your idea of preventing it during bad weather is the way to go.

[Nirosi]

Capture d’écran 2024-02-17 130850.png (643.12 KiB) Viewed 1041 times

Here is the actual supply level of the map. In parenthesis is the map change the presence of the HQ provokes.

[Nirosi]

Oups! Wrong discussion! Sorry.

[boldairade]

How would the removal of cold turns help Russia?

My only game as Russia I used winterized and it did help the last two winters.

[boldairade]

How would the removal of cold turns help Russia?

My only game as Russia I used winterized and it did help the last two winters.

[stjeand]

Winterization only works when it is snowing / blizzard...

Cold turns mean that the Germans get full supply and movement as well as no attack issues.


A cold turn in October or November basically are a free turn for Germany...


IF the war goes as it should...then in winter of 43 it could slow the Russians a little...

But to be honest...the cold turn is more devastating in 1941 and 1942 when the Russians are weakest.


The biggest issue I see is Germany currently gets 3 to 4 extra turns unlike the Real war. They normally attack in May, rather than the end of June. That is huge...now give them another turn in October or November and they can end the game in 1941.

[ncc1701e]

Something I am asking myself regarding East Front. Not talking of Warplan but in general.

1941: Barbarossa - failing in front of Leningrad, Moscow and Rostov.

1942: no more any ressources to do three offensives on three directions. Only one offensive was possible.

How do you simulate this?