What a load of crap

Pawlock · Post by **Pawlock** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:49 am

One of my loves in Pc gaming has always been reading the manual. Some like to dive straight in, some like me dont. The Pdf is ok, but is by no way a substitute, the only way is by going the Kinko's way as reams of A4 scatttered about my worktop gets irritating fast.
Task switching is a no go AFAIC as I find it hard to read something and then switch back to look at what I just read about. Manual by the side is my preference.

btw just out of interest, Battlefront does not always include manuals as I can contest with "strategic command" ,that was pdf.

As for appendages and new data needed with patches and easy to do with pdf version, but what is wrong with patch read me files?

My say, and Im still waiting for my copy in Euroland!!!!!

Why oh why oh why, cant the world synchronise release dates? is this an ego thing? it sure seems this way over this side of the pond.

wodin · Post by **wodin** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 2:44 am

CMBB was released in the UK through CDV and as all new games come out over here in dvd cases all the manual wasnt included.

Battlefront also expect us to pay extra for a full printed manual.

So its not just Matrix its also Battlefront and nearly all other game companies whose manual cant fit in the box.

I dont know whether KP comes with the manual on the disk as CMBB does but if you havent a printer then its no good really.

Wodin

bilbow · Post by **bilbow** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:24 am

Originally posted by willgamer
My 2 cents is that Matrix has hit it out of the ballpark with the pdf manual but printed tutorial approach!

I could begin playing the tutorial immediately and it's my choice to print, use Kinkos, or just task switch when needed.

I hope this becomes the standard.

Agreed. Another advantage of the pdf is you can't lose than darn thing. How many times have I spent time looking for a manual?

Paul Vebber · Post by **Paul Vebber** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 5:20 am

Why oh why oh why, cant the world synchronise release dates? is this an ego thing? it sure seems this way over this side of the pond.

No, its a supply chain thing. It leaves our warehouse on day X and then diffuses out to distriubuters, from whom it diffuses out.

TO synchronize so everyone can get it the same day would require immense planning, hoping that stores leave it locked in their back room for some weeks, while it makes it way to everybody.

The Harry Potter thing was amazing, and had to enlist even the US POst Office to hold packages for delivery. Ewven so soome slipped through the cracks...Synchronized release everywhere in the world is next to impossible. Especially for acompany of our limited means...

Adam Parker · Post by **Adam Parker** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:51 am

Harry Potter... even books need patches today LOL!

Reading this thread 2 things stand out: 1. I'd have named it "What no manual?" and 2. My answer would have been "ehhh - wrong".

A very nice effort in supplying a printed tutorial manual, good stock paper with illustrations from what I can see and going on feedback here, comprehensive to boot. Though black and white it is designed to be read whilst playing along so comprehending the lack of color in it's illustrations should be easy. Thumbs up out of the box. More later.

And thank you to someone on this forum re the warning in holding the box upside-down and having the manual hit you in the face. That is usually the way I open games too.... :p

Nickel · Post by **Nickel** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 7:34 am

I would rather pay a little less for the game and get it sooner considering all the logistics involved. I've got an HP DeskJet 932, not all that fast. It took me about 12-13 minutes to print the manual. I checked ink before and after I printed and I used way less than 10% (runs in 10% increments, so might be less than 5%). The tutorial manual included was very good and got you able to start playing right away. I guess I don't see what the issue is here. Besides if there are any manual changes, I would hope that they are included with the patch. Then just print the changes. :rolleyes:

Pawlock · Post by **Pawlock** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 1:23 pm

Originally posted by Paul Vebber
No, its a supply chain thing. It leaves our warehouse on day X and then diffuses out to distriubuters, from whom it diffuses out.

TO synchronize so everyone can get it the same day would require immense planning, hoping that stores leave it locked in their back room for some weeks, while it makes it way to everybody.

The Harry Potter thing was amazing, and had to enlist even the US POst Office to hold packages for delivery. Ewven so soome slipped through the cracks...Synchronized release everywhere in the world is next to impossible. Especially for acompany of our limited means...

Now this, trying not to sound confused is baffling. Why? because is this not the reason Matrix signed a deal with "Justplay" to be the main distributors for Europe? If that is the case then surely they print thier own copies based on the master copy? No need for shipping from US as they should have their own supply.

I must be wrong in this assumption?

Toxie · Post by **Toxie** » Wed Aug 13, 2003 11:24 pm

I see everyone's point on having a .pdf. It can be updated etc. But I see Uncle Joe's too. I'm an old wargamer and I remember some of the excellent manuals that use to come with some great boardgames from AH, OSG, SSI, Battleline etc. I loved to have these in hand for when I was out and about (work, play, 'throne' etc) in RL. I would clutch them, peruse them when a chance arose, caress them in glee at the wonderful mechanics, historical commentary, bibliography and definition of terms. It was grail like,
teddy bear like:D in it's substance and connection to a great game I wish I was playing right now, but RL was preventing it.
In that I'm nostalgic and am alway's delighted when a big, fat,
juicy manual full of all above said items come with a game. But I too know time's change, attitudes change and economics change.
Understandable to say the least. But yet...

Toxie

p.s. Well old grognards have to live up to the name:) (and come to think of it, some manuals end up being better then the game. One that comes to mind is MPS's 'Across the Rhine'. The historical
commentary manual was great! I still have it around for quick reference (you know, old, memory lost etc:rolleyes: )

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:23 am

Don't mean to be a wise-@ss, but for you who want a printed manual - don't you own a printer?

And if not, at least around here the print shops have pretty decent fares.

Snigbert · Post by **Snigbert** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:05 am

I dont really care that there is no manual. The user guide that came with it has everything I need (as far as what button to press to perform a function). I'll never bother going through the trouble of printing the manual out, because it doesn't have any information I need after reading the user guide.

uncle joe · Post by **uncle joe** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:07 am

Originally posted by Belisarius
Don't mean to be a wise-@ss, but for you who want a printed manual - don't you own a printer? And if not, at least around here the print shops have pretty decent fares.

Well, I see most of those individuals have successfully avoided comprehending the point I was making, especially Belisarius. It isn't about whether or not someone has a printer, has the extra 12 bucks or whatever to run out to Kinkos to print it, or whether or not it is going to end up as a never read, unused manual collecting dust in an attic. It's about companies such as Matrix cutting corners by not including something that, up until a few years ago, was considered to be a standard. Much in the same way that instead of jewel cases being used, some games come in paper envelopes, and we the consumer adjust to this change without raising our collective voices.

I have been playing wargames since the Avalon Hill days and have a pretty good sized collection of board games. I might have missed it, but I didn't hear an outcry for companies to start putting manuals in PDF form instead of having a printed manual. Notice I said "instead of" and not "in addition to" People say how great it is that it is on PDF because it is searchable and can be updated. How in the hell does this preclude printing a manual as well? Answer: It doesn't. They can put it out on PDF AND included a printed manual - what a concept. For those of you who don't want the printed manual, throw it in the garbage. For those like myself who have a massive collection of wargames that have all come with manuals, we'd like that to continue without companies expecting us to have it printed at our own expense. I guess I'm a voice in the wilderness when it comes to this topic, but I'm not afraid to raise the bullshit flag when something like this occurs. You fanboys out there flame me and continue to sing the praises of Matrix, but what they did is wrong, and nobody can convince me otherwise.

In a few years when companies start charging extra for... oh let's say they start charging five bucks to download a patch....I'll be wanting to hear the same indivuduals defending this and saying how it's a good thing, because the principle is the same as what's going on here.

"Joss" Osborne · Post by **"Joss" Osborne** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:39 am

Originally posted by uncle joe
I have been playing wargames since the Avalon Hill days and have a pretty good sized collection of board games. I might have missed it, but I didn't hear an outcry for companies to start putting manuals in PDF form instead of having a printed manual.

Ya know I have to agree with you there ... I mean back in 1964 when Avalon Hill produced "Afrika Korps" I remember telling my Dad,

"You ought to write Avalon Hill a letter for me or call them on the telephone. I demand that this paper manual be written in .pdf format so I can store it on my computer. That way I could search for the contents"....

Dad: "Well son, I'd do that for you except for one thing..."

Me: "What's that dad?"

Dad: "What's a computer?"

For those of you who don't want the printed manual, throw it in the garbage.

Good advice, I usually do this when I lose my first PBEM match....

For those like myself who have a massive collection of wargames that have all come with manuals, we'd like that to continue without companies expecting us to have it printed at our own expense.

First, I happen to own a large colelction of wargames, both computer and boardgames, and I don't remember voting for you as my spokesman.

I guess I'm a voice in the wilderness when it comes to this topic, but I'm not afraid to raise the bullshit flag when something like this occurs. You fanboys out there flame me and continue to sing the praises of Matrix, but what they did is wrong, and nobody can convince me otherwise.

You make this sound like a moral injustice has been commited....like Matrix is involved in some illegal plot. For the most part, the people on this forum have given you the oppportunity to express your views. This also includes the man at the top of Matrix games, David Heath. Who very politely responded to your question and asked you be allowed to present your views. Not something you find in any company much less a game company.

You however seem content to just rail away with such a closed mindedness expressed by your quote:"nobody can convince me otherwise."

It's been quite some time since I've seen such moronic buffoonery actually dragged out in public. Probabaly not since the last one of Mike Tyson's well known antics ... so in that vein,all I have to say to you, sir is:

"I take my hand off to you"

Out.

Fred98 · Post by **Fred98** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:57 am

Your view is clear: The missing hard copy manual is poor customer relations.

That’s your view and you are entitled to it.

Considering that I live on the other side of the earth, a $10 manual costs me AUD$20 plus an extra AUD$5 in shipping.

Would you pay $25 for a hard copy manual?

And considering the box is so much smaller, I save another AUD$5 in shipping – whooo!

That’s AUD$30 passed directly onto the consumer – me

Les_the_Sarge_9_1 · Post by **Les_the_Sarge_9_1** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:38 am

Hmm as we speak I have a box of manuals beside my right foot.

Only thing they are good for is holding up my right foot too.

Now lets see, anyone here not actually aware that I think Hearts of Iron is the worst #%$#^%@^^%#$$#^$%@#@ piece of garbage ever made?

Ok if I had spent 50 bucks on that game, a manual would only have given me a weapon to beat you to death with.

Korsun Pocket without a manual.... oh friggin bummer.

I would rather have to get off my unmotivated worthless butt and reference a pdf manual, and actually read it on the monitor not while taking a dump on the toilet, than have a nice shiny manual that is more or less a waste of paper if it looks like these manuals here in this box (which I might of thumbed through thrice while on the toilet).

Whether Matrix Games CAN make a manual is neither here nor there. Whether every other schmuck computer game company can do it is also of no consequence.
It ain't making these manuals at my feet worth anything more just cause eeeeeeveryone was doing it.

Not purchasing games from a company with a track record like Matrix Games where making sure the game was even worth buying, based solely on not getting a pathetic waste of paper manual, is an indication of limited logic in my opinion.

And I have seen Battlefront's manual for Combat Mission. Big whooooooopdeeeedooo. They make a good game, and their manual has nothing to do with their games being good.

PeckingFury · Post by **PeckingFury** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:23 am

This is not a fast paced RTS game, its turn based for christ sakes!!!! why is hitting alt tab to an open pdf doc so GD difficult. I suppose everytime a patch is put out that changes the printed holy grail of literature, a brand new manual should be redone as well.

Come on tell us the real meaning of the gripe about no manual, its those nice smelling, freshly inked pages isnt it.

degen · Post by **degen** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 10:48 am

I sympathize with you uncle joe, but I think you are picking on the wrong game developer. If you want to vent then you should complain about the games that come with a manual but then push a $20 strategy guide on you. Most of the RTS/RPG/FPS come with printed manuals that have nice pictures and supposedly helpful information, but the manuals lack any depth in explaining how the games work. Instead the game developers pack all the information you wanted to know in the separate strategy guide under the guise of giving 'walkthroughs of missions.' What a rip off to have to pay for a separate guide to learn a game's insights.

I much prefer the approach that Matrix Games is following as it allows you to start playing the game and then gives you the detailed manual to consult as needed. Yeah, it would be nice if Matrix included a printed manual with the game, but paying $60 instead of $50 just to have the manual would not be worth it to me.

Belisarius · Post by **Belisarius** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:38 am

Originally posted by degen
Most of the RTS/RPG/FPS come with printed manuals that have nice pictures and supposedly helpful information, but the manuals lack any depth in explaining how the games work. Instead the game developers pack all the information you wanted to know in the separate strategy guide under the guise of giving 'walkthroughs of missions.' What a rip off to have to pay for a separate guide to learn a game's insights.

Hehe so true. I have Rise of Nations (bought in weak moment), and the 'manual' provides nothing - NOTHING - that the tutorial doesn't do. :p The only plus is the quick AI commands keymap at the backside...

Joe, I understand your point, but I don't agree with it. See the difference? I know you (and reasonably others as well) think that the game should include a printed manual, for you it's important to the value of the game.

What I don't agree with is your assumption that this is bad PR for Matrixgames. It's all about marketing and for many (most? - I don't know) players/customers, a printed manual is NOT a value adding characteristic for the product.

BrubakerII · Post by **BrubakerII** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 11:57 am

Personally, I like a hard copy manual. But I am a book collector as well :rolleyes: Like most here I have a huge collection of mauals and no where to store them. I have read only half about once. If a company has to take 'shortcuts' in order to survive, then so be it. If DH or MS or RM were driving around ion Ferraris as still not giving us a manual, well okay you got an argument. But they're not and and neither are most others in this genre so we're stuck with the pdf's. End of story.

Out of interest what I would like to see though is a manual that is incorporated into a game - an extension of the pop up display if you like. Right click on a balloon - it opens the Acrobat reader to the relevant section etc. Some fiddly coding to be sure but a wirth successor to the paper version.

brubaker

Marc von Martial · Post by **Marc von Martial** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:42 pm

Okay,

let me step in here. We could add full printed manuals and players guide of course. But we allways sayed if we do so the games will retail for 5-7$ (if not more cause of shipping) more.

So we though about it and came up with the solution to keep the prices where it is, include a smaller "Players Guide" / "Tutorial" that we can afford without raising the price and shipping costs (after all we have to cut even or there won´t be any new wargames from us).

The vast majority of customers is okay with the PDF manual and the alternative of getting a Kinkos manual for a few bucks if they really want it. That way we don´t press the extra cost of the full printed manual on those that don´t need it necessarily but still offer those that badly want a printed manual the opportunity to get it via Kinkos.

It think this is a really fair deal, since it keeps the price for everybody low, but those that demand the full printed manual can order it via Kinkos, the money Kinkos charges is around the same we would have to rise the price to cut even with production costs. So for those that want the full printed manual there´s no difference in price (since the game would be more expensive with a full printed manual anyway). Fair deal IMHO.

It´s not that I don´t like printed stuff

Tbone3336 · Post by **Tbone3336** » Thu Aug 14, 2003 2:50 pm

As has been stated numerous times in this thread already, it is clear this (no printed manual) is done as a cost saving measure. For matrix to have included the manual in hard copy would have probably raised the price another $5.00 per unit to the customer (assuming Matrix receives a discount on bulk printing). Now instead of $50 you have at minimum a $55 game (more for overseas buyers).

Given the state of Wargaming in the past several years as far as profitablity, (there are not many publisher as you can see nowadays to begin with due to the lack of profitablity), any cost cutting that has to be done should come from none program items first. I would rather not have a printed manual than say the development stop short of them including the combat advisor in the game. Or adding the scenario designer component. Would a great manual be nice, absolutely, but not at the expense of future games being made. Just my .02 cents.

What a load of crap

You have a point, but with the wrong game developer

Re: You have a point, but with the wrong game developer