What Do You Think Needs to be in World In Flames PC Game

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
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RE: What Do You Think Needs to be in World In Flames PC Game

Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

I agree on the maps issue, but hardly figure it will be a problem in the computer version. Or at least I would be surprised if it was.

But I find matching up differing size maps to be a bit clumsy and ill thought out. Can't fathom how anyone even allowed that to happen in the first place.

Its a global game, I would hope the computer version takes the opportunity to do what would not have been practical for the board game, and give us a complete map of the world. Just because it was not important in the board game, nor the real thing, does not mean it isn't relevant.

If a ship travels X hexes in a turn fine. And if it is X hexes from England to say Suez via South Africa, then fine, let the ship travel the whole route, and forget abstracted rules simulating a ship going strategically from point A to point B.
Otherwise, why care who controls the Falklands eh.

There is no point in designing a global wargame, if the map isn't indicative the planet is a globe either. The world is round the last time I checked :)
I realise that might sound difficult sounding using hexes, but it isn't. Ask a rolegamer that has mapped out a planet if you have any questions.
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RE: What Do You Think Needs to be in World In Flames PC Game

Post by yamaslob »

Hello matrix forum. I was overjoyed to learn that Matrix is going to produce a Grand Strategy game for the pc. There seems to be a market for a good grand strat as there is not much in the way of competition. I have been waiting for a global scale game for a long time. Hearts of Iron was not the game I was hoping for but definitely had some strong points. I have every bit of confidence that Matrix will get it right.

I must admit that I have never played WIF but do know that it is a very detailed product. I just hope that it is a system that can work well into a playable pc game. My only concern is that the things that are not quite right in the board game will be transferred to the pc version for the sake of an exact duplicate. I hope that Matrix will abandon any parts of the game that are ‘dubious’ to the system and put into place another more enjoyable, and hopefully a better fitting, system.

One thing that has me concerned is the turn length. I would so much prefer that the game was slowed down to a 2 week or maybe a month long turn sequence. Fighting the whole of ww2 in 36 turns Max seems a little rushed. It should take more time to formulate and bring into fruitation military operations IMHO. Fronts should move slower and it seems that a 2 month turn would severely hamper the feeling of island hopping that was so common in the pacific.

As to the appearance of the game,I really HATED the HOI map. It was just plain ugly IMO. The coastal distortion was awful and not near enough information about the hexes and its content or traits without switching the view too many times. I would love to see a map with the attention to detail as the one provided with UV. The counters should be done well with as much info about the unit as possible. No need for silly sprites imo.

I do not agree with Les_the_sarge in that the whole world be shown. Transfer boxes would be fine with the ability to wage strategic war against such hexes. Les also said;
I realise that might sound difficult sounding using hexes, but it isn't. Ask a rolegamer that has mapped out a planet if you have any questions.



I think there is no comparison between a made up world and the real one being mapped correctly. Who can critique the placement of borders when there isn’t anything to go off of.

Of course my dream game would have a more advanced diplomatic scale to it. It really adds flavor, but with such a system it is easy to get off of the historical feel of the game. Also a research area like that of Advanced Third Reich would be awesome.

That is about it for now. I don’t want to bombard you with my suggestions with the first post. I do have a question for the developers that would save a lot of time for all of us involved;

Do you indeed plan to follow WIF strictly? If so then design decisions would be better off in the form of interface and look. It is my vote to NOT adhere too tightly to the original.

Thanks,

Yamaslob

Ps…put me down for three copies on world in flames. It’s my turn to buy the next game for my group.
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Uncertainty

Post by Greyshaft »

Thinking further about a previous post...

We all sit here with the advantage of hindsight... kinda boring really. How about looking at the books and newspapers of the 1930's/40's and presenting a game that reflects the perceptions of the time. I've been rereading Schirer's History of the Third Reich and noted that when Hitler rolled into Austria he had to delay the victory parade through Vienna because Guderian's Panzers were so mechanically unreliable that 40% of them broke down on the way from the German border to Vienna. Yet the following year the German rolled into Poland with their mighty armor units and blew apart the Polish defences. So when the the Germans actually invade Poland in CWif should there be the chance that their Panzers actually fight as (say) a "3-3" rather than a "7-6" like their Generals thought they might? Ditto with the Britich concerns about the invincible armor on the enemy super-ship "Bismarck" and the USA concerns about the effectiveness of the B-29 and every other piece of new technology in the war.

Lets fight the war with the reality of uncertainty... if that makes sense.
/Greyshaft
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RE: Uncertainty

Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

Actually the comment with respects to how rolegamers map out globes was in regards to how the projection is handled actually.

You get a map that depicts a sphere in the process. Not sure how a computer would render that though.

Regarding each and every hex, I suppose area boxes might be needed. My main concern, is limiting the abstraction if possible. Emphasis on "if possible".
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RE: Uncertainty

Post by Fred98 »

Traditionally, the certainty of uncertainty, is handled by a dice.

In Korsun Pocket, we have a traditional 6 sided dice. In spite of this there are 8 possible results – numbered from 1 to 8.

Even though we have computers, I still like the concept of dice. It is something a human can wrap his mind around. But now that we have computers we don’t need to have a 6 sided dice. 12 sides for example would be great.

In KP, bowling a 1 or a 2 quite often is a very bad result. With a 6 sided dice the odds of bowling this is 4 in 12.

With a 12 sided dice the odds of bowling a 1 or a 2 are 2 in 12.

In other words, as the dice is larger, the results can be smoothed. It means the most fantastic strategic/tactical moves can be damaged by bad luck rather than destroyed by bad luck.
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RE: Uncertainty

Post by Caranorn »

I will repeat the general thoughts I expressed on the old boards before Matrix got hacked.

1) CWiF (lets call it CWiF II to honor Chris Marinacci) should be as close to WiF as possible. If you wish to design a new game (as much as I understand that is not Matrix's intent) you should also chose a new name and not claim a no longer existing tie to one of the most popular board wargames of all times. Most of WiF's aspects should be easily transferable to the computer (some sequences might need modification to improve Pbem).

2) AI should be optional. The more realistic and complex a game is the worse average or bad AI affects gameplay. Now if Matrix could create the best AI in the world, I might be willing to play against the computer for years and years. But anything less I will always switch to either TCP or solo-ing (hotseat). Some have mentionned a tutorial AI which seems like a good idea. That should greatly help new players get into the game.

3) The game should be editable as much as possible (again I understand this is indeed Matrix's plan). That includes map and counter graphics (or graphics in general), text files for orders of battles, tables etc. This might even include rules, though that I expect would be hard to do.

4) As planned the game should be global at a single scale. On the computer there no longer is a need for the three scales applied to WiF (European, Asian and offmap). As to those who wonder why WiF FE used those three scales, just imagine tghe tables you'd need to play Asia and Africa on the European scale.

5) I like the idea to make the number of division breakdowns unlimited in CWiF. Though I can imagine some abuse to this system. One area would be Japanese garrisons in China which would free Japanese corps for other duties. This area at least could be negated via the Partisan system (just imagine Mao's elite corps' smashing those puny divisions far behind Japanese lines;-). Another problem could be a Germany maxed out on production and adding a division to every Atlantic Wall stack (which I hear can be tough to crack as is, I never played beyond 1943 myself so have no personal experiences of this).

6) Include as many Optional rules as possible, that would include common House rules. If possible include DoD (logically DoD III) or at least plan to add it with a later update. The playable timeframe (for mods) should probably be late 1920's to the mid 1950's (beyond that technology changes to fast and I feel would break the game). The standard game should still be either 1939 to 1945 or 1936 to 1945 (both with optional lengthening of the game).

7) as usual I forgot what else I wanted to say. So maybe I'll fill in some more points at a later time:-)

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RE: What Do You Think Needs to be in World In Flames PC Game

Post by Mziln »

If a ship travels X hexes in a turn fine. And if it is X hexes from England to say Suez via South Africa, then fine, let the ship travel the whole route, and forget abstracted rules simulating a ship going strategically from point A to point B.
Otherwise, why care who controls the Falklands eh.

[:(] I wish you people had downloaded a copy of the demo. [:(]

The rules are still at ADG (Australian Design Group) under Downloads. Download the following files...

Changes between versions
16th July 2000

RAW2-RAW61.zip
RAW4d-RAW6S.zip


The demo put "Hearts of Iron" to shame.

[:(] My last Download was on 9/14/02 [:(]
Editor.zip 555k
Palette.zip 1k
Rules.zip 2,207k
Setup.zip 17k
Wif.zip 131k
Wifd.zip 1,303k

Ships moved by Sea Areas. Eample the Mediterranean sea had 3 sea areas...

Eastern Mediterranean, Italian Coast, and Western Mediterranean. Malta bordered all three making it very strategic.

Sea Areas had a Sea Box (numbered 0-3). The Sea Boxes determined how vunerable you were to being found/attacked. Your choice of location in the Sea Box was dependent on the number of movement points you had remaining.

For Air to Sea searchs how many movement points you expended entering hexes to get tp the Sea Area effected the results.
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RE: What Do You Think Needs to be in World In Flames PC Game

Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

In regards to the last publicly offered demo, or at least the files as of Oct 20th 2003, the ones available on the last day before they were withdrawn, I actually have those.

But as David asked they be removed from circulation (that was his personal request to me), I honoured that request. As such, I am fairly aware of what the game once looked like. Where exactly it is now I am not privvy to though (I am not part of that process).

Essentially speaking, demos that don't contribute, are a harmful distraction in a lot of cases.

I like the fact that Matrix Games actually cares about the public image of games they are involved with.

Bringing a multi phased turn using global strategy board game to the computer is no one's idea of a simple easy prospect.
The board game being a board game, was designed around the assumption both players would naturally enough both be visibly present sitting at a table.
Thus, the game was entirely designed around that reality.

It is that reason, why producing an AI that will even have value is such a challenge. If the game had started as a computer wargame, and had never been anything other than a wargamer for the computer, it is likely the design would have reflected that enough, that an AI would be a lot less troubled.

It is clear that most WANT an AI. But that is a reflection of the fact most of us will insist on being able to play it solo on a computer.
A lot of us will not have the board game, and therefore a lot of us won't have played it, and therefore a lot will expect a tutorial which will in effect teach us how to play the game.
Frankly though, a basic print out of the manual would likely be simpler to produce, than beating the designer over the head to make a viable tutorial eh.
I am unsure of what the cost to make the manual would be. But I am sure it will cost a decent amount in programmer expenses to make the software tutorial. And the manual has always been a fairly simple black and white non colour text document.

It is possible that the game could be done correctly, and made just a computerised board game of itself, unmodified in any way.
It is equally possible the game could be made sans AI and made either capable of hotseat mode for two player, or email capable so that both players don't actually need to be there. It is possible the game can easily accomodate more than two players too.

It is possible all the screaming for an AI will kill off cWiF from being a profitable do able reality too.

I would not mind an AI. I would not mind a moderately capable AI.
I don't actually need one though.
Hell prove to me you can't play both sides of the board game now. Prove to me you could not do the same thing on a computer interface.
Prove to me there is an ABSOLUTE need for an AI.
If 9 out of 10 persons demand an AI, and the need of an AI kills the game, then 9 out of 10 people will have killed the game.

Simple as that.

Its been a number of years now eh. If this game was easy to port to a computer, I think it would have been done by now. So clearly something is wrong with the expectations maybe.

I am stuck comparing this game to two titles.
Hearts of Iron and Strategic Command.
HoI I do NOT want (multiple reasons)
Strategic Command I like.
SC does not have a mulit phased convoluted turn proceedure though. You want to move a unit fine, it has a move radius shown. You want to attack, fine it can make an attack. But it must do so before moving another piece, so the moves need planning and forethought.
Research is a matter of do it or not purchase.
Building or repairing units is a do it or not prospect.
In short, the player is not bogged down with minutae.
Politics is straight and simple.
Various game effects are straight and simple.
Attack with an air unit, and interception is automatic, not in the hands of the player.
Naval interception requires you are in a position to do so.
Supply is handled by the computer, so you don't need to verify it yourself. It is either in supply or it is not.

That is the strength of SC. The AI is not bogged down with intricate multi phased sequenced decisions. I can look at a board while my opponent in moving, and decide instantly about various details as they are played out.
That fortunately, is the one advantage of the hman mind. I think, therefore I am :)
The AI is not thinking, merely employing data routines reactively.

cWiF could likely be on the shelf in a few months if it was "look here is the game, you can play it on your computer, and yes, you have to learn to play it first."
Would it bug me that the game came with absolutely no tutorial, and I had to actually read a manual first? No.

Welcome to wargaming dudes. That's how I did it for 20 years before computers.
Now you know why some of us actually CAN play wargames better than some.
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RE: Uncertainty

Post by Cheesehead »

It's easy for those of you with local opponents to say "don't worry about AI, it's not important, just get us the game on PC." Those of us who have been unsuccessfully searching for local opponents have a different attitude. If 9 out of 10 potential buyers of this game are without local opponents, it's worth attempting AI.
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RE: Uncertainty

Post by Greyshaft »

Les:
If 9 out of 10 persons demand an AI, and the need of an AI kills the game, then 9 out of 10 people will have killed the game.

If 9 out of 10 persons demand an AI and Matrix doesn't provide an AI then 9 out of 10 people won't buy the game. However since Matrix have already promised an "Intelligent computer opponent" as a feature then I'd say that there will be an AI. I'm still interested in hearing of a PC-based successful strategy wargame that doesn't provide an AI? No contenders? I'd say that fulfils your request to "Prove to me there is an ABSOLUTE need for an AI." You add many interesting observations to these boards Les but I think you find it difficult understanding that other people have priorities that are different to your own. I admit I'm a bit the same... I can't understand the attraction of first person shooters when there are historical wars to be refought... but game companies have gotta follow the $$$ and crusty old farts like you and me sometimes get left behind. Let's be glad that there are some wargames coming out... and if you don't like the AI that Matrix is putting in CWiF you can always turn it off [:D]



Marc:
1) Most of WiF's aspects should be easily transferable to the computer (some sequences might need modification to improve Pbem). - AGREED
2) AI should be optional. - AGREED. It should be available but players don't need to use it
3) The game should be editable as much as possible - AGREED
4) As planned the game should be global at a single scale. - AGREED uh oh... I'm agreeing with Marc too much... something's wrong here
5) I like the idea to make the number of division breakdowns unlimited in CWiF. - NOT SURE. Frankly I don't know how much this would change the game. I could imagine the Germans leaving behind stacks of individual divisions as speed bumps for the Russian juggernauts. As long as they avoided the 10:1 overrun the Russians would need to stop and blow away cheapo divisions while the Germans rebuilt their defences a few hexes back. Lots of playtesting needed.
6) Include as many Optional rules as possible, that would include common House rules. If possible include DoD (logically DoD III) - AGREED

Phew! At least I disagreed on one point!
/Greyshaft
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RE: Uncertainty

Post by pasternakski »

Three things about AI:

-No AI, no sale. As I have been posting since almost the first day I started running my mouth in these forums, most wargamers who play computer games do so because they either have no human opponent or prefer playing games against the game, not against other people.
-Game designers seem to spend their time on the game and not on a cybersystem that can play the game. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee. Advances in technology have made many things thought unrealistic or impossible realistic and possible. Why not a truly challenging AI that doesn't have to cheat to get results?
-The AI hates you even when it works for you. UV is a perfect example. How often have you muttered underneath your breath, "Thanks for sending my bombers on a suicide mission against a worthless target?" If you can't make it work for me, let me micromanage it.
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RE: Uncertainty

Post by yamaslob »

Well I downloaded the rules and am now skimming through em. Man does wif look to have a lot of things covered. I am so stoked about this project.

As far to the AI, I use it to learn how to play. I can play a game without dedicating the time when I don't fully know how to play at that point.Then I learn from the computer what to do and what not to do. It is very important to me and I surely would not purchase the game without an one. Just wouldnt be attractive to me. But I think that question has been solved with the product description.

I still think 2 months turns make for too short of a game but I could be wrong.

Do any others feel the same way about turn length?

yamaslob
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RE: Uncertainty

Post by Fred98 »

I have played many games on PC and after a while the AI becomes an easy beat. My view is that the AI can be used to practise against. Or to test/check cartain game features.

In a game like this, the AI will place a unit in an excellent position and do the little things very well. And you can learn from this and use it against a human player.

The first few games against an AI are challenging until I learn the game system. After that the AI is hopeless.

So a game against the AI eventually is out of the question – a game against humans is the only way to go.
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RE: Uncertainty

Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

I must say though, I have had to deal with saying there would never be a 4th Mega Campaign and to get used to it (the one I helped produce hehe :) ).

I would like to see my Combat Leader show up something fierce though.

I can't see how they will be able to make cWiF see the light of day, but what the heck, I can deal with being wrong on that issue hehe.

Wargames just seem to have a fiercesome dedication to unruly time frames of arrival eh.
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RE: What Do You Think Needs to be in World In Flames PC Game

Post by Mziln »

Hell prove to me you can't play both sides of the board game now. Prove to me you could not do the same thing on a computer interface.

[X(] I tend to unknowingly cheat against myself without an AI. [X(]

But I agree it wouldn't be a necesity but would be nice.
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RE: Uncertainty

Post by Greyshaft »

ORIGINAL: yamaslob
I still think 2 months turns make for too short of a game but I could be wrong.

In WiF each two month turn is composed of an unpredicatable number of identical IGOUGO impulses so there are a lot more than 36 turns in a 6 year war. I'm not looking at the tables now but I think there are between 2 and 10 impulses per turn.
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RE: What Do You Think Needs to be in World In Flames PC Game

Post by Moriturus »

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1



Welcome to wargaming dudes. That's how I did it for 20 years before computers.
Now you know why some of us actually CAN play wargames better than some.

Now that's not very nice of you.[:-]

I played wargames 20 years before computers as well. I now have a job, kids, a life, etc., and I don't want to spend a lot of time just figuring out how a game works before being able to play it. A good tutorial helps teach the game quickly, because it's much easier to understand various funcitons, concepts, etc. by actually doing them. Also, despite the best efforts of game designers, game manuals are not always models of clarity. A good example of a helpful tutorial is the one that comes with Korsun Pocket; it was very useful for getting me into the game quickly.

An AI opponent is essential if Matrix wants to market the game effectively; many people will not be able to, or will not want to, find human opponents. We can all berate the stupidity of current AI opponents, but it's still necessary to sell games. Bow to the inevitable . . . [&o]

Now to specifics: what I'd like to see is a function where you can click on a hex and all of the units are laid out in detail full-screen. Also, a zoom feature wherein the area visible on the large map can be shrunk or enlarged would be very uselful in allowing players to change their focus on the amount of the battlefield that thy're interested in. Having a "rollershade" feature, where the functional portion of the screen can be removed with just a small tab to pull it back up, would also be helpful in allowing better map visibility. Finally, in close zooms, have tiling that shows most, if not all, of the attributes of all units in a hex and its six immediate neighbors.

No six-sided die like in Korsun Pocket; that's the cheesiest thing I've seen in computer gaming in a while, and I think it really is a major flaw in that game. The combat predictions and results in The Operational Art of War are much more realistic and interesting.

A user-friendly interface is very important, and it's hard to achieve with a complex wargame. Playtest, playtest, playtest, I guess . . .

Division breakdowns could be a real problem if there is no transaction costs for doing so. Making the divisional strengths of breakdowns significantly lower than the parent corps, and/or imposing a significant reforming penalty (or simply disallow reforming, perhaps allowing the division to be removed and thrown into the replacement pool) would limit the use of breakdowns. As to the fear that, e.g., the German player on the Eastern Front would use them to slow the Soviet player while re-grouping, well, that's what a rearguard is for, right?

Having some uncertainty as to the actual combat stregth of untried units is a good idea; it puts a premium on retaining veteran units and makes things more interesting when green units go into battle.

I don't think the game needs to be released with "alternative universe" scenarios, just with a good game editor. The alternate scenarios will then be designed by people who are much more interested in that sort of thing, leaving the game designers to concentrate on the game itself. Also, the game should of course have the widest possible methods of play: single-player, hot seat, PBEM, maybe LAN and Internet, and perhaps multiplayer.

And most important, make it FUN![:)]
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RE: Uncertainty

Post by Caranorn »

I almost certainly won't even find a single WiF or CWiF player in my country. But over the internet that is not a limiting factor. TCP or Pbem can get you those opponents and the onlty question will be how many turns you can coordinate to play per week. And the same way I played WiF the boardgame solo for years (since version 4 iirc) I will be able to play CWiF solo in hotseat mode (I played Chris's demo that way too).

Marc aka Caran...

P.S.: Don't worry about opponents now, WiF has a good fan base now and I'm certain it will expand for CWiF, almost any time zone you live in you will find a number of good and dedicated players.
ORIGINAL: Cheesehead

It's easy for those of you with local opponents to say "don't worry about AI, it's not important, just get us the game on PC." Those of us who have been unsuccessfully searching for local opponents have a different attitude. If 9 out of 10 potential buyers of this game are without local opponents, it's worth attempting AI.
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RE: What Do You Think Needs to be in World In Flames PC Game

Post by Caranorn »

In WiF iirc, you automatically lose at least 50% combat strength when you break down a corps. That is if you breakdown an 8-6 ARM for example you can only draw 2 divisions neither of them with a strength higher then 2. Also, only the first division (except for INF and MOT) so created is of the same type as the corps. The second is always eitehr a MOT or INF. When you recombine later you cannot draw a corps (a division plus a MOT Div gives the first type corps) more then twice the combined strength of the divisions. So, using divisions you first have a clear loss of combat power (but with added stacking capacities as you can stack a division or artillery unit in addition to the 2 corps in a hex, and/or garrison capacities etc.). Even once you recombine the divisions into a corps you will almost certainly have a lasting strength loss (say in the previous example you drew a 2 strength ARM div and a 1 strength MOT div, you could only re-create a 6 strength ARM for a net loss of 2 strength points).

But there are still many benefits of using divisions, one of the countries that will profit most I expect is Japan, both in it's Chinese campaigns (garrisons mostly) and island hopping (SCS (Surface Combat Ships) used to transport infantry type divisions).

Lastly, I typed this out of memory, I haven't been able to play WiF in ages (I have the room, but setting up a game takes a lot of time). So my memory of how exactly Corps split could be off.

A last remark, corps and armies are treated exactly identically for breakdown. The only difference between WiF corps and armies these days really is what country they belong to (China almost exclusively uses armies, the USSR mostly armies, many minors use armies too, most other majors use corps only).

One area I'd like to see change back to the earlier versions of WiF is headquarters. I'd prefer them to once againbe division size, low combat capacity units (and add the then missing corps and armies back into the game). But that's just a minor pet peeve of mine and will almost certainly be editable in CWiF.

Marc aka Caran...
ORIGINAL: Moriturus

Division breakdowns could be a real problem if there is no transaction costs for doing so. Making the divisional strengths of breakdowns significantly lower than the parent corps, and/or imposing a significant reforming penalty (or simply disallow reforming, perhaps allowing the division to be removed and thrown into the replacement pool) would limit the use of breakdowns. As to the fear that, e.g., the German player on the Eastern Front would use them to slow the Soviet player while re-grouping, well, that's what a rearguard is for, right?
Marc aka Caran... ministerialis
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RE: 2 month turns

Post by stewart_king »

A turn in WiF is two months long, but it is sub-divided into a variable number of impulses, in which units get to move. A ground unit in a summer turn could move a half-dozen times. Each impulse is maybe a week or two. The variation -- when the turn is going to end -- is randomly determined and varies with the weather, the season, and choices that the players make. Manipulating turn length is one of the big strategic criteria of the game. So board WiF is really some 400 "impulses" long.

A game of CWiF I takes about six months of regular play (say 12-15 hours a week) to finish. If you're fast... Don't worry about this game being too short.
Stewart R. King
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