(Dave gives me extra 80mm HE rounds during resupply for these little plugs here and there. [:)] )
MarkShot
Mark,
Great AAR.
You do realise that those 80mm rounds can't be fired from your Sextons as they fire a 25pd shell ( 84mm ). [;)]
HTTR (mini-guide): Tutorial, AAR, tips!
Moderator: Arjuna
RE: Tutorial Thread
From Arjuna:
Mark,
Great AAR.
You do realise that those 80mm rounds can't be fired from your Sextons as they fire a 25pd shell ( 84mm ). [;)]
Mark,
Great AAR.
You do realise that those 80mm rounds can't be fired from your Sextons as they fire a 25pd shell ( 84mm ). [;)]
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 15:03
Day 1 @ 16:43
Our attacking forces are preparing to cross the canal. Our recon unit has run cross the Son Bridge and encountered German units which had fallen back. At the moment, our recon unit is stalled in a shoot out.
See screenshot below:
The battle is pretty much done at Son. However, we have yet to complete the task of moving our fire base North.
See screenshot below:
It's Day 1 @ 16:43 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) We have good control of the situation at Son and we will still have a lot of arty fire power on-call even if one battery is on the move.
My new orders:
(1) Have the arty battery at Eindhoven more North to the new fire base before its services are needed in the attack on St. Oedenrode.
See my new orders in the screenshot:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 1 @ 16:43
Day 1 @ 17:19
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 15:03
Day 1 @ 16:43
Our attacking forces are preparing to cross the canal. Our recon unit has run cross the Son Bridge and encountered German units which had fallen back. At the moment, our recon unit is stalled in a shoot out.
See screenshot below:
The battle is pretty much done at Son. However, we have yet to complete the task of moving our fire base North.
See screenshot below:
It's Day 1 @ 16:43 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) We have good control of the situation at Son and we will still have a lot of arty fire power on-call even if one battery is on the move.
My new orders:
(1) Have the arty battery at Eindhoven more North to the new fire base before its services are needed in the attack on St. Oedenrode.
See my new orders in the screenshot:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 1 @ 16:43
Day 1 @ 17:19
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 16:43
Day 1 @ 17:19
Our attacking forces are taking up positions on the Northern back of the canal. Our recon unit fought its way through the shattered German defenders and is now on its way up St. Oedenrode.
See screenshot below:
To the far South, the brigade base just arrived.
It's Day 1 @ 17:19 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) Reinforcements ...
My new orders:
(1) The brigade base is to take up a defensive position at our new fire base.
See my new orders in the screenshot:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 1 @ 17:19
Day 1 @ 19:58
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 16:43
Day 1 @ 17:19
Our attacking forces are taking up positions on the Northern back of the canal. Our recon unit fought its way through the shattered German defenders and is now on its way up St. Oedenrode.
See screenshot below:
To the far South, the brigade base just arrived.
It's Day 1 @ 17:19 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) Reinforcements ...
My new orders:
(1) The brigade base is to take up a defensive position at our new fire base.
See my new orders in the screenshot:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 1 @ 17:19
Day 1 @ 19:58
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 17:19
Day 1 @ 19:58
Our recon unit found the highway heading North to be free of German defense, but encountered a strong German presence at St. Oedenrode. As can be seen in the left Stats Tab, they have taken a pretty bad beating from the defenders at St. Oedenrode. Of course, our arty is returning the favor.
See screenshot below:
At the Son Bridge, the 1/7th. Inf Bn is busy securing the objective:
To the extreme South, the 1/6th Queens Inf Bn has just arrived:
Also, the 131st. Queens Inf Bde (the first force to attack Son) is preparing to cross the Canal.
It's Day 1 @ 19:58 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) Reinforcements ...
(2) Recon has given us some good intel. We have clear route up to St. Oedenrode which is heavily defended.
(3) The 131st. Queens Inf Bde order's are out dated. We already hold the Son Bridge and the 1/7th. Inf Bn is busy securing it.
Remember?
Phase III: Prepare Push on St. Oedenrode (2 06:00 - 2 12:00)
Phase IV: Take St. Oedenrode (2 12:00 - 2 22:00)
As I see that the Germans have concentrated their defense at St. Oedenrode, I will skip Phase III and go directly to Phase IV.
The battle has been proceeding at a good tempo. I want to maintain it. I am not going to stand down due to night fall and rest. It is a short battle and my troops can manage it.
My new orders (my forces will be moving under the cover of darkness):
(1) The 131st. Queens Inf Bde will take the highway North and attack up the middle from the South.
(2) The 1/6th Queens Inf Bn will take a wide flanking route and attack from the opposite flank and not where the Germans would expect it from the North. There is a slight bit of risk to doing this, but I don't believe the Germans will be present any where else in great strength. Although I could be wrong and run into reinforcements on the road. It is a chance which I am willing to take, since I am well ahead of schedule.
(3) The 1/7th. Inf Bn will be left to hold Son in case of a counter attack by the Germans. (no new orders for this)
See my new orders in the screenshots. You can see the orders first zoomed out and then zoomed in on St. Oedenrode.
Zoomed Out:
Zoomed In:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 1 @ 19:58
Day 1 @ 20:47
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 17:19
Day 1 @ 19:58
Our recon unit found the highway heading North to be free of German defense, but encountered a strong German presence at St. Oedenrode. As can be seen in the left Stats Tab, they have taken a pretty bad beating from the defenders at St. Oedenrode. Of course, our arty is returning the favor.
See screenshot below:
At the Son Bridge, the 1/7th. Inf Bn is busy securing the objective:
To the extreme South, the 1/6th Queens Inf Bn has just arrived:
Also, the 131st. Queens Inf Bde (the first force to attack Son) is preparing to cross the Canal.
It's Day 1 @ 19:58 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) Reinforcements ...
(2) Recon has given us some good intel. We have clear route up to St. Oedenrode which is heavily defended.
(3) The 131st. Queens Inf Bde order's are out dated. We already hold the Son Bridge and the 1/7th. Inf Bn is busy securing it.
Remember?
Phase III: Prepare Push on St. Oedenrode (2 06:00 - 2 12:00)
Phase IV: Take St. Oedenrode (2 12:00 - 2 22:00)
As I see that the Germans have concentrated their defense at St. Oedenrode, I will skip Phase III and go directly to Phase IV.
The battle has been proceeding at a good tempo. I want to maintain it. I am not going to stand down due to night fall and rest. It is a short battle and my troops can manage it.
My new orders (my forces will be moving under the cover of darkness):
(1) The 131st. Queens Inf Bde will take the highway North and attack up the middle from the South.
(2) The 1/6th Queens Inf Bn will take a wide flanking route and attack from the opposite flank and not where the Germans would expect it from the North. There is a slight bit of risk to doing this, but I don't believe the Germans will be present any where else in great strength. Although I could be wrong and run into reinforcements on the road. It is a chance which I am willing to take, since I am well ahead of schedule.
(3) The 1/7th. Inf Bn will be left to hold Son in case of a counter attack by the Germans. (no new orders for this)
See my new orders in the screenshots. You can see the orders first zoomed out and then zoomed in on St. Oedenrode.
Zoomed Out:
Zoomed In:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 1 @ 19:58
Day 1 @ 20:47
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 19:58
Day 1 @ 20:47
Not much has happened, since my last update. My forces are busy digesting their new attack orders for St. Oedenrode and they are just beginning to be sent down the line to lower commands.
Our recon unit up by St. Oedenrode is recovering from being routed by the Germans. They have taken 75% casualities.
It's Day 1 @ 20:47 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) Any further push by my recon unit would be suicidal on their part. They have already made a major contribution.
My new orders:
(1) I revise the recon unit's orders and have them take up a position in the tree line and keep the Germans under observations.
(2) All other orders still stand.
See my new orders in the screen shot. RDOA players will notice a gama shift in the game map. (No, that's not my video card failing.) The game now scales the gama based on time of day. It is a very clear reminder of changes in the visibility situation.
Night Falling On:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 1 @ 20:47
Day 1 @ 21:31
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 19:58
Day 1 @ 20:47
Not much has happened, since my last update. My forces are busy digesting their new attack orders for St. Oedenrode and they are just beginning to be sent down the line to lower commands.
Our recon unit up by St. Oedenrode is recovering from being routed by the Germans. They have taken 75% casualities.
It's Day 1 @ 20:47 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) Any further push by my recon unit would be suicidal on their part. They have already made a major contribution.
My new orders:
(1) I revise the recon unit's orders and have them take up a position in the tree line and keep the Germans under observations.
(2) All other orders still stand.
See my new orders in the screen shot. RDOA players will notice a gama shift in the game map. (No, that's not my video card failing.) The game now scales the gama based on time of day. It is a very clear reminder of changes in the visibility situation.
Night Falling On:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 1 @ 20:47
Day 1 @ 21:31
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
Another new feature highlight which I forgot to mention. Notice the light blue and dark blue status bars on the left of the screen shot. This allows you to compare the initial state of the unit versus its current state. This is handy, since the extreme right position actually represents full strength for the unit. However, many scenarios have units starting at reduced strength. Thus, this new feature allows you to see what has been the impact of combat in this scenario.
Another new feature highlight which I forgot to mention. Notice the light blue and dark blue status bars on the left of the screen shot. This allows you to compare the initial state of the unit versus its current state. This is handy, since the extreme right position actually represents full strength for the unit. However, many scenarios have units starting at reduced strength. Thus, this new feature allows you to see what has been the impact of combat in this scenario.
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 20:47
Day 1 @ 21:31
Not much has happened, since my last update. My forces are busy digesting their new attack orders for St. Oedenrode and they are just beginning to be sent down the line to lower commands. <-- No, I didn't haphazardly cut and paste that from my last post. That's pretty much the situation. This is the impact of order delays. Things don't happen instantly.
A bridge building unit did show up as a reinforcement to the extreme South. There's no bridges for them to build and I don't mind.
It's Day 1 @ 21:31 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) Reinforcements ...
My new orders:
(1) Send the bridge building unit to defend up around Son. After all, they have about 60 rifles and spot for my arty.
(2) All other orders still stand.
See my new orders in the screenshot:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 1 @ 21:31
Day 2 @ 01:09
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 20:47
Day 1 @ 21:31
Not much has happened, since my last update. My forces are busy digesting their new attack orders for St. Oedenrode and they are just beginning to be sent down the line to lower commands. <-- No, I didn't haphazardly cut and paste that from my last post. That's pretty much the situation. This is the impact of order delays. Things don't happen instantly.
A bridge building unit did show up as a reinforcement to the extreme South. There's no bridges for them to build and I don't mind.
It's Day 1 @ 21:31 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) Reinforcements ...
My new orders:
(1) Send the bridge building unit to defend up around Son. After all, they have about 60 rifles and spot for my arty.
(2) All other orders still stand.
See my new orders in the screenshot:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 1 @ 21:31
Day 2 @ 01:09
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 21:31
Day 2 @ 01:09
To the North:
Things are heating up again. The 131st. Inf Bde's attack from the South is now underway. The 1/6th Queens Inf Bn did not encounter any German opposition during their flanking maneuver. They are now about 8-9km from reaching the FUP leading to their attack from the North.
See screenshot below:
To the South:
The 5th. Inniskillen Dragoon Guards (henceforth the 5IDG just arrived.)
See screenshot below:
It's Day 2 @ 01:09 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) Reinforcements ...
(2) We hold the Son Bridge and the highway from there to St. Oedenrode is clear. We can bring the 5IDG right into the battle.
(3) The 5IDG brings one arty unit with it which should join our fire base.
My new orders:
(1) The 5IDG's arty to deploy with at the fire base South of the canal.
(2) The 5IDG to proceed directly up towards St. Oedenrode and attack from the East.
I think the Germans at St. Oedenrode are in for one nasty wake up call when the sun comes up.
See my new orders in the screen shot. First, the 5IDG's orders. Second, the zoomed in attacks on St. Oedenrode.
5IDG's Orders:
Attacks on St.Oedenrode:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 2 @ 01:09
Day 2 @ 09:52
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 1 @ 21:31
Day 2 @ 01:09
To the North:
Things are heating up again. The 131st. Inf Bde's attack from the South is now underway. The 1/6th Queens Inf Bn did not encounter any German opposition during their flanking maneuver. They are now about 8-9km from reaching the FUP leading to their attack from the North.
See screenshot below:
To the South:
The 5th. Inniskillen Dragoon Guards (henceforth the 5IDG just arrived.)
See screenshot below:
It's Day 2 @ 01:09 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) Reinforcements ...
(2) We hold the Son Bridge and the highway from there to St. Oedenrode is clear. We can bring the 5IDG right into the battle.
(3) The 5IDG brings one arty unit with it which should join our fire base.
My new orders:
(1) The 5IDG's arty to deploy with at the fire base South of the canal.
(2) The 5IDG to proceed directly up towards St. Oedenrode and attack from the East.
I think the Germans at St. Oedenrode are in for one nasty wake up call when the sun comes up.
See my new orders in the screen shot. First, the 5IDG's orders. Second, the zoomed in attacks on St. Oedenrode.
5IDG's Orders:
Attacks on St.Oedenrode:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 2 @ 01:09
Day 2 @ 09:52
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 2 @ 01:09
Day 2 @ 09:52
This post is somewhat different than the others. I am providing you an update here at Day 2 @ 09:52, since it is pretty clear that it's all over for the Germans. They have fallen back towards the West of St. Oedenrode after being hit on two flanks. The 5IDG will soon hit them from the East. You will notice that the Win Meter (top left) is pegged all the way around 95%.
There was no reason for me to stop and there are no new orders to be given. However, I wanted to share with you the glory of a plan which is all coming together.
See screenshot below:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 2 @ 09:52
Day 2 @ 13:26
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 2 @ 01:09
Day 2 @ 09:52
This post is somewhat different than the others. I am providing you an update here at Day 2 @ 09:52, since it is pretty clear that it's all over for the Germans. They have fallen back towards the West of St. Oedenrode after being hit on two flanks. The 5IDG will soon hit them from the East. You will notice that the Win Meter (top left) is pegged all the way around 95%.
There was no reason for me to stop and there are no new orders to be given. However, I wanted to share with you the glory of a plan which is all coming together.
See screenshot below:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 2 @ 09:52
Day 2 @ 13:26
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 2 @ 09:52
Day 2 @ 13:26
131st. Queens Inf Bde has fallen back to regroup and reattack. They have seen a lot of the fighting as they were the first assault the German positions at St. Oedenrode. The 1/6th Queens Inf Bn is busy securing the objective. The 5IDG has just initiated their attack.
See screenshot below:
It's Day 2 @ 13:26 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) The Germans at St. Oedenrode are on the run.
(2) Our troops are tired and we have what we came for.
My new orders:
(1) Put all my forces at St. Oedenrode under a single command of the 131st. Queens Inf Bde HQ.
(2) Have the 131st. Queens Inf Bde HQ organize a defense of the St. Oedenrode area.
See my new orders in the screenshot:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 2 @ 13:26
Day 2 @ 22:00
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 2 @ 09:52
Day 2 @ 13:26
131st. Queens Inf Bde has fallen back to regroup and reattack. They have seen a lot of the fighting as they were the first assault the German positions at St. Oedenrode. The 1/6th Queens Inf Bn is busy securing the objective. The 5IDG has just initiated their attack.
See screenshot below:
It's Day 2 @ 13:26 and we have arrived at another juncture in this battle. How did I determine that?
(1) The Germans at St. Oedenrode are on the run.
(2) Our troops are tired and we have what we came for.
My new orders:
(1) Put all my forces at St. Oedenrode under a single command of the 131st. Queens Inf Bde HQ.
(2) Have the 131st. Queens Inf Bde HQ organize a defense of the St. Oedenrode area.
See my new orders in the screenshot:
In our next installment, we'll look at the time period of:
Day 2 @ 13:26
Day 2 @ 22:00
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 2 @ 13:26
Day 2 @ 22:00
It's the end of the battle. As you can see my forces are well spread out and the Germans don't stand a chance of mounting a successful counter-attack.
In fact, the German commander offered to surrender a few hours ago, but since I came to fight, I refused it. (see yellow arrow)
Here is how things looked right before the end:
Here is the final map with no fog of war:
Here are the final numbers:
RDOA players should note that it is now possible to flip back and forth between the final map and the AAR screen. Also, it is now possible to save the AAR so that you can compare results from one game to the next.
We'll review what has happened during:
Day 2 @ 13:26
Day 2 @ 22:00
It's the end of the battle. As you can see my forces are well spread out and the Germans don't stand a chance of mounting a successful counter-attack.
In fact, the German commander offered to surrender a few hours ago, but since I came to fight, I refused it. (see yellow arrow)
Here is how things looked right before the end:
Here is the final map with no fog of war:
Here are the final numbers:
RDOA players should note that it is now possible to flip back and forth between the final map and the AAR screen. Also, it is now possible to save the AAR so that you can compare results from one game to the next.
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
Any comments on my AAR/tutorial/preview?
---
Perhaps if you ask me nice, I might even tell you about (very briefly) the approach I took as the German commander in this scenario. It almost worked despite Dave hinting that I could have well gotten myself shot by Herr Hitler, himself. Well, I always say if you got to be shot, make sure you go right to the top. [:)]
---
Good night folks.
PS: If I don't respond to anyone later this week, it could be that (a) I have no electricity, (b) I have no Internet access, (c) I have no home, or (d) all of the above. A major tropical storm is due to strike my part of the world quite soon. Ah, but, at least, I finished my AAR and I did get my hands on HTTR months before most. [:)]
Any comments on my AAR/tutorial/preview?
---
Perhaps if you ask me nice, I might even tell you about (very briefly) the approach I took as the German commander in this scenario. It almost worked despite Dave hinting that I could have well gotten myself shot by Herr Hitler, himself. Well, I always say if you got to be shot, make sure you go right to the top. [:)]
---
Good night folks.
PS: If I don't respond to anyone later this week, it could be that (a) I have no electricity, (b) I have no Internet access, (c) I have no home, or (d) all of the above. A major tropical storm is due to strike my part of the world quite soon. Ah, but, at least, I finished my AAR and I did get my hands on HTTR months before most. [:)]
RE: Tutorial Thread
From Rolfor:
Hi MarkShot
Many, many many thanks (!) for this great documentation (it is!)
and your work on this!
I read the original (and great) RDOA-manual but after this I had
so many questions, because it is not the same to read, option
by option, or - like I could it do with your AAR - to "show" a
profi "over his shoulder".
I wish I have had this AAR (or better documetation with 70 progress-screenshots and sidesteps in recon and others ...) in the beginning of my AA-Time ...
Thx again and
greetings
Rolfor
* sorry, my english is not the best but I work on this *g*
Hi MarkShot
Many, many many thanks (!) for this great documentation (it is!)
and your work on this!
I read the original (and great) RDOA-manual but after this I had
so many questions, because it is not the same to read, option
by option, or - like I could it do with your AAR - to "show" a
profi "over his shoulder".
I wish I have had this AAR (or better documetation with 70 progress-screenshots and sidesteps in recon and others ...) in the beginning of my AA-Time ...
Thx again and
greetings
Rolfor
* sorry, my english is not the best but I work on this *g*
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
Rolfor,
Thanks for your kind words. That makes this thread all worth while.
Yes, I know what you mean. For any new community of players like RDOA, they can be divided into three categories:
Cat 1: Players of previous games in the series.
Cat 2: Players of other games in the same genre.
Cat 3: Players new to both the game's conceptual base and specific mechanics.
I fell into Cat 3. I had a long history of air combat, but like to try something different from time to time. As you said although RDOA was well documented for Cat 2 players, there was nothing available to really help Cat 3 players get up to speed. This is often a shame for many fine games, since it results in abandonment by players who would have really embraced the given game if they only had a little more knowledge.
Hopefully, this thread will be of some help to future Cat 3 players of HTTR.
By the way, I understood your English just fine. Thanks.
Rolfor,
Thanks for your kind words. That makes this thread all worth while.
Yes, I know what you mean. For any new community of players like RDOA, they can be divided into three categories:
Cat 1: Players of previous games in the series.
Cat 2: Players of other games in the same genre.
Cat 3: Players new to both the game's conceptual base and specific mechanics.
I fell into Cat 3. I had a long history of air combat, but like to try something different from time to time. As you said although RDOA was well documented for Cat 2 players, there was nothing available to really help Cat 3 players get up to speed. This is often a shame for many fine games, since it results in abandonment by players who would have really embraced the given game if they only had a little more knowledge.
Hopefully, this thread will be of some help to future Cat 3 players of HTTR.
By the way, I understood your English just fine. Thanks.
RE: Tutorial Thread
From JeF:
Mark,
A quick question : why did you set so many waypoints at the end of your flanking attacks ?
The attacks following the highway are straight ones, most of the time a single way point to define the FUP.
The flanking ones offer way points to define the route, this is fine and understandable. Then there are half a dozen way points just before the FUP. Why ?
I found the hard way that setting waypoints close to the ennemy might not be a good tactic, as if, by any chance, an ennemy unit sits on it, then the TacAI is stuck and it will not turn around it by iself.
Rolfor: did you check the Drop Zone AAR section ?
JeF.
Mark,
A quick question : why did you set so many waypoints at the end of your flanking attacks ?
The attacks following the highway are straight ones, most of the time a single way point to define the FUP.
The flanking ones offer way points to define the route, this is fine and understandable. Then there are half a dozen way points just before the FUP. Why ?
I found the hard way that setting waypoints close to the ennemy might not be a good tactic, as if, by any chance, an ennemy unit sits on it, then the TacAI is stuck and it will not turn around it by iself.
Rolfor: did you check the Drop Zone AAR section ?
JeF.
RE: Tutorial Thread
JeF,
There were quite a few screenshots in this thread and you did not specify which. I'll assume that you might have been refering to this one:
My reasons:
(1) As good as the AI is for path finding in RDOA/HTTR, I still prefer not to leave too much to chance.
(2) I'll specify very few waypoints when:
(a) The transit is likely to be fairly obvious and threats are low.
(b) I want the AI to find the fastest route and use it.
(c) Threats are high, but I personally don't have a good idea where they might be. So, I want the AI to respond to them as they are found.
(3) I'll specify some to many waypoints when:
(a) It's a long distance and I don't want the AI to get creative like taking a route that takes it through or near an objective. Even if Intel reports show no enemy contacts at or around an objective, prudence would dictate that an objective and nearby roads are a magnet for the bad guys. However, how is the AI to know? Because it might be a meeting engagement and thus, the enemy may not have had time to reach the objective. Or you might be conducting recon and your goal is to run across the enemy. Or you may suspect that the enemy is there but don't think they are present in sufficient strength to present a problem, but maybe time or positioning is of the essence.
In short, it's hard for the AI to know what is your intel picture (not the one it reports, but what you believe) of the battle and to know what your actual intent is when moving forces in the grand scheme of things.
(b) The engine does not permit changing route directives at different waypoints. So, I might want to do something like say while traveling from A to B avoid the enemy (since engaging them will only remove you from the battle) and while traveling from B to C force your way through (since you are needed where I told you to go and if you encounter resistance, then you still accomplishing something of value). Of course, you can perform multiple order cycles, but this also adds delays.
(c) I am intent on performing recon of a specific route and I don't want the commanded unit to find a better path. It's mission is to reveal the enemy on the ordered path even if that means that it will take horrendous casualties or find that it has no hope of reaching the specified end point.
(d) There are specific cases for which I tend to specify an extreme number of waypoints as in the screenshot above. Two which come to mind are:
Case I: I wanted the attackers to make their way to the area of St. Oedenrode as fast as possible. However, regardless of any intel reports, I strongly suspect a German presence at Ruzingen. Now, I want to FUP North of St. Oedenrode and hopefully unobserved by the Germans. So, I want to get off the road before I hit Runzingen. Using fewer waypoints, I run the risk of the AI plotting a fast route to my FUP that might take me across enemy positions (as I did want speed for 95% of the route, but not here). By using so many waypoints, I am overriding the route finding AI and leaving it no choice but to simply take a direct path between each and therefore implement my desired route.
Case II: Often I may want to set up particular units along a tree line or along the edge of a BUA to cover a road/clearing. I find that generally the AI will loop around the front of the woods or BUA to setup to cover the road/clearing. This fine and good when you are setting up a prepared defense. However, in a hasty defense when the lead is already flying this is somewhat suicidal and results in unnecessary casualities. So, I will specify a detailed route to the position which keeps cover between the unit and likely avenue of enemy approach. Granted I could try setting the route type to SAFEST or COVERED (which I have rarely experimented with), but once again my orders were to the ATG unit something like "get to the woods as fast as possible and then deploy to the tree line while avoiding unnecessary casualties".
---
JeF, I hope that I have answered your question satisfactorily. On the whole, I find the AI path finding in HTTR very good. It saves a lot of time and adds to the high-level feel of the game. For those who have not played RDOA yet, setting waypoints is nothing like what is required in flight sims and tactical combat games like Combat Mission. Often just a faint suggestion of the route you desire is sufficient to have your AI underlings work out the details. Also, you will commonly depend on your AI subordinates to respond to unexpected situations as they develop both in terms of path finding and providing security for the task force while it is in transit.
So, bottom line the AI path finding in HTTR is impressive, but it still doesn't read my mind. [:)]
There were quite a few screenshots in this thread and you did not specify which. I'll assume that you might have been refering to this one:
My reasons:
(1) As good as the AI is for path finding in RDOA/HTTR, I still prefer not to leave too much to chance.
(2) I'll specify very few waypoints when:
(a) The transit is likely to be fairly obvious and threats are low.
(b) I want the AI to find the fastest route and use it.
(c) Threats are high, but I personally don't have a good idea where they might be. So, I want the AI to respond to them as they are found.
(3) I'll specify some to many waypoints when:
(a) It's a long distance and I don't want the AI to get creative like taking a route that takes it through or near an objective. Even if Intel reports show no enemy contacts at or around an objective, prudence would dictate that an objective and nearby roads are a magnet for the bad guys. However, how is the AI to know? Because it might be a meeting engagement and thus, the enemy may not have had time to reach the objective. Or you might be conducting recon and your goal is to run across the enemy. Or you may suspect that the enemy is there but don't think they are present in sufficient strength to present a problem, but maybe time or positioning is of the essence.
In short, it's hard for the AI to know what is your intel picture (not the one it reports, but what you believe) of the battle and to know what your actual intent is when moving forces in the grand scheme of things.
(b) The engine does not permit changing route directives at different waypoints. So, I might want to do something like say while traveling from A to B avoid the enemy (since engaging them will only remove you from the battle) and while traveling from B to C force your way through (since you are needed where I told you to go and if you encounter resistance, then you still accomplishing something of value). Of course, you can perform multiple order cycles, but this also adds delays.
(c) I am intent on performing recon of a specific route and I don't want the commanded unit to find a better path. It's mission is to reveal the enemy on the ordered path even if that means that it will take horrendous casualties or find that it has no hope of reaching the specified end point.
(d) There are specific cases for which I tend to specify an extreme number of waypoints as in the screenshot above. Two which come to mind are:
Case I: I wanted the attackers to make their way to the area of St. Oedenrode as fast as possible. However, regardless of any intel reports, I strongly suspect a German presence at Ruzingen. Now, I want to FUP North of St. Oedenrode and hopefully unobserved by the Germans. So, I want to get off the road before I hit Runzingen. Using fewer waypoints, I run the risk of the AI plotting a fast route to my FUP that might take me across enemy positions (as I did want speed for 95% of the route, but not here). By using so many waypoints, I am overriding the route finding AI and leaving it no choice but to simply take a direct path between each and therefore implement my desired route.
Case II: Often I may want to set up particular units along a tree line or along the edge of a BUA to cover a road/clearing. I find that generally the AI will loop around the front of the woods or BUA to setup to cover the road/clearing. This fine and good when you are setting up a prepared defense. However, in a hasty defense when the lead is already flying this is somewhat suicidal and results in unnecessary casualities. So, I will specify a detailed route to the position which keeps cover between the unit and likely avenue of enemy approach. Granted I could try setting the route type to SAFEST or COVERED (which I have rarely experimented with), but once again my orders were to the ATG unit something like "get to the woods as fast as possible and then deploy to the tree line while avoiding unnecessary casualties".
---
JeF, I hope that I have answered your question satisfactorily. On the whole, I find the AI path finding in HTTR very good. It saves a lot of time and adds to the high-level feel of the game. For those who have not played RDOA yet, setting waypoints is nothing like what is required in flight sims and tactical combat games like Combat Mission. Often just a faint suggestion of the route you desire is sufficient to have your AI underlings work out the details. Also, you will commonly depend on your AI subordinates to respond to unexpected situations as they develop both in terms of path finding and providing security for the task force while it is in transit.
So, bottom line the AI path finding in HTTR is impressive, but it still doesn't read my mind. [:)]
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
JeF,
One other thing I forgot to mention is that this thread very much reflects personal style of play more than most AARs which have thus been written. It would be kind of hard to avoid that in a tutorial. I had hoped to accomplish two things by exposing my own manner of play:
(a) Help new players who were lost and needed a little guidance to get going.
(b) Raise various discussions (as you have done) as to how to play the game and the richness of interface and options available to the player. (Perhaps, we'll get more of that going when everyone else gets their copy of HTTR. [:)] )
JeF,
One other thing I forgot to mention is that this thread very much reflects personal style of play more than most AARs which have thus been written. It would be kind of hard to avoid that in a tutorial. I had hoped to accomplish two things by exposing my own manner of play:
(a) Help new players who were lost and needed a little guidance to get going.
(b) Raise various discussions (as you have done) as to how to play the game and the richness of interface and options available to the player. (Perhaps, we'll get more of that going when everyone else gets their copy of HTTR. [:)] )
RE: Tutorial Thread
From JeF:
Thanks for the answer Mark. Yes very informative. I usually take for granted that the AI chooses a better route than me, even, if sometimes, some strange path are choosen. Nothing that can't be resolved by a well choosen waypoint, but you go further. I might need to take a try.
Indeed. And in fact, it is most interresting this way.
Cheers,
JeF.
JeF, I hope that I have answered your question satisfactorily. On the whole, I find the AI path finding in HTTR very good.
Thanks for the answer Mark. Yes very informative. I usually take for granted that the AI chooses a better route than me, even, if sometimes, some strange path are choosen. Nothing that can't be resolved by a well choosen waypoint, but you go further. I might need to take a try.
One other thing I forgot to mention is that this thread very much reflects personal style of play more than most AARs which have thus been written. It would be kind of hard to avoid that in a tutorial.
Indeed. And in fact, it is most interresting this way.
Cheers,
JeF.
RE: Tutorial Thread
From Arjuna:
Mark,
Point taken about wanting to steer the final leg north of the treeline. However, I think JeF is correct in that you probably didn't need all six waypoints - I reckon three would have sufficed.
It's intereseting that you raised the issue of setting paramaters for each waypoint. This is doable but would add complexity. We could default to the standard task paramaters but then provide an overide facility for the selected waypoint. In the bulk of time it's not necessary, but I can see that in cases like your example it would be nice.
Mark,
Point taken about wanting to steer the final leg north of the treeline. However, I think JeF is correct in that you probably didn't need all six waypoints - I reckon three would have sufficed.
It's intereseting that you raised the issue of setting paramaters for each waypoint. This is doable but would add complexity. We could default to the standard task paramaters but then provide an overide facility for the selected waypoint. In the bulk of time it's not necessary, but I can see that in cases like your example it would be nice.
RE: Tutorial Thread
From MarkShot:
Dave,
Well, I am pretty sure that I probably use more waypoints than necessary on quite a few occassions.
For me, this comes with playing with ORDER DELAYS. If for some reason, I per chance specified too few, then:
(1) On a short move, it might be too late to redirect the task force, before they go where they should not.
(2) In any case, some measure of replan will be likely which will introduce new delays.
So, I look at it, if it takes an extra waypoint or two to save lives or keep a force from getting delayed three hours, then that is what it takes. The last thing I want to do is being going frantic at my CP trying to reach Colonel Smith on the radio trying to stop him from taking the road through Deelen when its probably infested with Germans despite whatever the intel weenies say. [:)]
Dave,
Well, I am pretty sure that I probably use more waypoints than necessary on quite a few occassions.
For me, this comes with playing with ORDER DELAYS. If for some reason, I per chance specified too few, then:
(1) On a short move, it might be too late to redirect the task force, before they go where they should not.
(2) In any case, some measure of replan will be likely which will introduce new delays.
So, I look at it, if it takes an extra waypoint or two to save lives or keep a force from getting delayed three hours, then that is what it takes. The last thing I want to do is being going frantic at my CP trying to reach Colonel Smith on the radio trying to stop him from taking the road through Deelen when its probably infested with Germans despite whatever the intel weenies say. [:)]