Aircraft upgrades and Japanese hindsight

[Drongo]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay
Is there a retooling period or not? Do you lose production if you switch factories from one fully researched aircraft to another fully researched aircraft?

When aircraft assemblies auto-upgrade to a new type that is part of its upgrade path, there is no "re-tooling".

However, all manual changes to an aircraft assemby that involve the switching of aircraft types will result in:
1) all production for that aircraft assemby being damaged and
2) a reduction in the current total production capability available for that aircraft assembly.

[HawaiiFive-O]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

HawaiiFive-O's post indicates that there is no retooling period. Since I haven't tried messing with the Japanese yet (I don't like to increase my knowledge of the Japanese setup until I've gotten quite tired of playing as Allied - did the same in UV), I wondered about that. Is there a retooling period or not? Do you lose production if you switch factories from one fully researched aircraft to another fully researched aircraft?

There is a retooling period. When you switch production, a certain amount of factories are rendered damaged and must be repaired. The amount of factories depends on the durability of the new model versus the old model. It takes time + supplies to repair the factories, and it takes longer to repair factories the further out the plane's availability date is.

So at the beginning of the war, A6M3 r+d factories (and factories you convert to the A6M3) will repair faster than factories dedictated to the Ki-44 Tojo/Ki-61 Tony, and these factories will repair faster than the ones for the Ki-43-II Oscars, etc.

If you convert a bunch of factories to the Reppu, you are going to be disappointed. Convert for the planes coming in the near to mid-term.

When I spoke about starting and stopping on a dime, I meant there's no domestic pressure to keep the Sally or Pete or Sonia etc. factories running full bore. You can pause production, leaving the factory idle and save the HI + engines. Then, as need warrants, you can turn the factory back on and rebuild the pool. Just-in-time delivery of planes to your combat units.

All this finagling is *not* going to win you the war. But every little bit helps.

All this talk about production makes me dizzy. The planes aren't as important as the PILOTS. It's the pilot situation that's going to kill Japan, not 15 odd Oscar squadrons.

[bradfordkay]

Thanks for clarifying the matter for me.

[Luskan]

As someone who has used the production system in pbem games probably longer than anyone here, I'll venture a few remarks.

At present, although the japanese player has a chance to fix up production in a "gamey" fashion, they PAY for it EVERY time they convert from plane or engine type A-B, and then PAY for it again when htey expand their industries.

What are they paying in? They're paying in vital supplies and resources. Nobody seems to remember that most of the time, it isn't cost effective to change so many options.

Second, as the upgrade paths won't allow you to just build georges off the bat, it isn't really in issue if you haven't researched and built all the aircraft inbetween here and there.

I will also point out here that its my opinion that jap planes are a secondary issue - what good are the georges if you've been using obsolete aircraft for the last 3 years in order to produce them? None - why? because your PILOTS - you 2nd most important commodity are all crappy by now because you've been sacrificing them in obsolete aircraft.

Every jap player will want to get rid of those nates. Its natural. But you aren't going to be able to do it faster than historically AND fight a war without crippling your economy.


Perhaps the only change I would like to see is to completely knock accusations of gamey-ness out of the production argument, we could have the exact same research system, only no ETAs on when planes and things arrive. That way you can research all you want, but you won't know when the upgrade becomes available etc. If you don't know when they're going to arrive - you're going to have major trouble over or under stockpiling if you are gamey.

production is to get what yuo need now, research is for later. Ignore either of them or have a bad imbalance, and you're going to get your ass kicked, now, or later. If I was the allies I wouldn't care either way!

[Mike Scholl]

Luskin. Some good points. The only thing I've ever thought that was wrong
with the way the system allows the Japanese to change/improve some of their
A/C (at what you point out is a stiff price) is that having done so it doesn't
allow them to use the "paid for" improved A/C because of the limitations on
the Air units. That's a kind of "double jeopardy that seems unfair.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: brisd

ORIGINAL: PJJ

I agree completely.

Example: Most WitP players probably know that N1K or Ki-84 were excellent fighters. Now, the Japanese didn't know this in December 1941, and therefore didn't put everything they had in R & D of these planetypes. In WitP, you can do just that.

I think there shouldn't be any player controlled research in WitP. If you know what you are doing, you can win the game as Japan - especially against the AI.

The AI is not a challenge to me or most seasoned players. I expect a human (either side) to handle to AI even in the hardest setting, it is simply unable to respond to strategic moves long term.

As far as the issue of players having hindsight, I agree with Lemurs. Both sides spent time reseaching aircraft and trying them out in the field and the combat results of 1943 spoke for themselves. So why didn't more advanced Japanese aircraft make it to the frontlines to face the advanced Allied aircraft? Much of it was production issues, skilled labor, strategic materials, etc. Japan put in a superhuman effort to increase air production in late 43/early 44 to have numbers to fight America and when those units were destroyed in the battles of Marianas and Philippines, the aircraft industry was exhausted and the B-29's finished the job. That is why 2by3 put in limitations on how soon you can get them and why I think they put limits on how many sentai can be equipped with the Ki-84. From all my reading the Ki-84 WAS the aircraft planned to replace ALL army fighters except for the interceptors (Ki-61/100). So I am 60/40 on the issue, to want change to present system. I don't want the system to collapse from free-reign research/upgrades. Lemurs does have a point about the Japanese player does pay for investing heavily in research/upgrades. He will lose that production while new aircraft are coming online and that is also one reason it didn't happen historically, Japan needed NUMBERS in the field.

From one source I have, Operation Olympic would've faced over 10,000 IJAF planes, 5,350 of which would've been kamikaze. They didn't mention whether they had the fuel for them or not, so I suppose they did. The same source said that Operation Olympic had 9,000 planes available.

[MengCiao]

ORIGINAL: fbastos

I don't get you guys... if someone wants to cheat the game system, what's the problem with that? Would you forbid tweaking production just because someone is going to whack the crap out of the AI?

I say: keep that as a toggle. If the player wants to do that, let him. If you dont like, simply don't do.

As for myself (I always play as ally), I forbid myself to take decisions based on future knowledge. So I always run the Prince of Wales and Repulse to Khota Bharu, even if they usually get sunk, as to run them away would be a violation of the Royal Navy.

I say the rules should let the players do whatever they find fun doing, however dumb that sounds to you (sinking the Prince of Wales in my case), and give you the option of not doing that or toggling off if you don't want to.

Regards,
F.

I'm playing the Japs in a campaign PBEM. I would like to have total control over aircraft production and upgrades and air group assignments
because without the assistance of the Imperial General Staff it is nearly
impossible to keep track of the 40 types of insanely crappy planes circulating in the Little Empire.

I don't mind the crappy planes per se, but it does seem a bit much to
expect a player to undertake the additional administrative burden of
having the 80 Mojos ready for 2 crappy squadrons in China in 1943.

So my vote is...have a switch and if in a PBEM game a player takes the
Japs he ought to have total control over all apects of the Imperial Aircraft stuff. Perhaps a point penalty could be assessed for this control.

Otherwise it just makes running the Little Empire a lot harder for no
reasonable gain.

[brisd]

ORIGINAL: fbastos

I expect a human (either side) to handle to AI even in the hardest setting,

Ohh... really?

Time to restart then... I've been playing at HARD rather than VERY HARD.

Hmm.. better start another thread asking if everybody plays on VERY HARD.

Regards,
F.

I should never post so late at night. To clarify my opinion, I am playing on Hard setting now and expect to for a long time. Eventually, most players will find that setting too easy. [;)]

Japan did have thousands of aircraft on hand at end of the war, many kept out of battle so there would be something left to fight with when the expected Allied invasion came. But their ability to replace those planes was severely diminished.

[Oznoyng]

ORIGINAL: HawaiiFive-O
All this talk about production makes me dizzy. The planes aren't as important as the PILOTS. It's the pilot situation that's going to kill Japan, not 15 odd Oscar squadrons.

Very short sighted of you. The 30 odd Oscar squadrons are going to kill alot of pilots that would live in the Tony or Tojo. Reducing Japan's pilot attrition rate is a function of what plane they are flying and how they are used.

This argument is like some guy arguing over whether the heart is more important, or the legs, in winning a race. Chop off a guys legs, he ain't gonna win. Arrest his heart, he ain't gonna win. Good pilots in bad planes get shot down by mediocre pilots in great planes (A6M2 versus F4U-1 anyone?). In this case, good pilots in great planes are going to shoot down poor pilots in poor planes faster than they will shoot down mediocre pilots in good planes. This isn't about winning - it never is with Japan. It is about a tactic for delaying the inevitable.

And again, my mantra, "Don't tell me about what Japan lacked historically - tell me about what I lack in the game I am playing. After December 7, I could care less about when Japan experienced a shortage in something - I want to know when *I* will experience it.

[Mr.Frag]

This argument is like some guy arguing over whether the heart is more important, or the legs, in winning a race. Chop off a guys legs, he ain't gonna win. Arrest his heart, he ain't gonna win. Good pilots in bad planes get shot down by mediocre pilots in great planes (A6M2 versus F4U-1 anyone?). In this case, good pilots in great planes are going to shoot down poor pilots in poor planes faster than they will shoot down mediocre pilots in good planes. This isn't about winning - it never is with Japan. It is about a tactic for delaying the inevitable.

Not true, it is *completely* about winning BEFORE the F4U even shows up! [:D]

Japan starts with a large number of great pilots in crappy aircraft. Saving them and getting them in better aircraft in 1942 is a HUGE plus to Japan. Japan has the Oscar I when the war starts. It upgrades to the Tony in Aug of 42. Both of these planes will do very well against everything the Allies have prior to mid 1943 when the F4U/F6F enter play.

Japan either wins in 1943 from auto-victory or is stuck in the long haul game to the bitter end at which point air power is rather meaningless and it is all about how well the expansion phase went and how well Japan has planned their defenses.

[HawaiiFive-O]

ORIGINAL: Oznoyng

Very short sighted of you. The 30 odd Oscar squadrons are going to kill alot of pilots that would live in the Tony or Tojo. Reducing Japan's pilot attrition rate is a function of what plane they are flying and how they are used.

Short sighted or pragmatic? *shrug*

I am aware that better planes = better pilot survivability. It's one of the areas where I drift from the 'Mogami Method', in that I don't try to dry up the Ann/Mary pools because I want my boys in better planes to keep them alive longer.

I've never said I wouldn't mind better planes for my pilots. My point is I'm willing to work within the framework given to achieve better results, rather than demanding the system change to suit me. And there is a lot you can do with the tools given, even though it's not a 'magic bullet' for Japan.

YMMV.