Map Graphics

[Marc von Martial]

How do these 2 game systems compare?? I'll most likely only play solo so that is also a factor in my buying decision.

I would say buy LNL, just for the ease factor, to play solitaire I would strongly recommend LNL.
But that's just a realy personal oppinion.

[Larac]

Well I am glad YOU like them,

I do not!

Some of the makers have said they do not.

It would have been better to FIX it before it was out, that was not done. IF YOU think there was a better solution before it was released put it up or can it.

I gave a solution to the problem that might help, for future printing and some ideas to help those of us that do not like the Halo style.

You attacked and that was it.

I would have missed the walls, with the Halo hexes, which is what I think he was trying to show, some items are just hard to see, with the hexes as is, you like them I am happy for you, but for those of us who do not, we are letting the makers know.

Someone put a lot of work to make what should have been for me great maps, but they are hard for me to use, and I miss the detail I know is there some where.

At $70 there should be some soultion to this which is a problem for some of us.

Lee

[crabe tambour]

ORIGINAL: Larac

You attacked and that was it.

Hey man, i attacked nobody here. I just expressed my opinion, like you. Peace. [&o] . Sincerely

ORIGINAL: Larac
I would have missed the walls, with the Halo hexes

Seriously?
Rabbits never have glasses. Maybe you could try to eat carrots for breakfeast... (<<joke joke)
( Happily it's "would have" and not "had". )

[AlvinS]

I have played LNL Forgotten Heros for about 4 months now, and never gave the hexes a second thought. However the picture on the right does let more of the beautiful artwork on the map show.

I am not sure how much it would add to production cost, but the solutiion below would solve this issue. When the PC version comes out, maybe there can be a button to turn the Halo effect off for those that don't like them.

The Best fix would have been to put the HALO Hexes on one side and the other to be useable by thoses like me that like to know what is in the hex, not just where the hex is.

Regardless of the outcome, for my money, Lock N Load is a very enjoyable and addicting game.[8D]

[Hannes]

ORIGINAL: Bull Man
See for Yourself!

Man! Bull Man! You faded them out? What hell of work is this?!?!

What I think of it? All in all, I really don't give a damn.

You see - the map art IS beautiful and hard to beat for tactical scale.

The grid - can a grid be ugly? Well - never thought about that. For me it was mainly a question of taste for the actual moment. For example - long ago I was sitting in front of a cosim, where the grid was light grey, hard to see and from a certain distance, you didn't see it at all - just the terrain and I was kinda excited about that.
But when I played, I had to concentrate more onto the grid, as I had to count ranges.

My point is - although Mark sees it totally different... while I am playing, there are only few moments where I lay back and admire the look. The "look" supports that it doesn't feel like I am playing an abstract game to me. But basically I concentrate on numbers, modifiers and stuff.
And - lol - yes, LnL's hexgrid is shouting, that it really helps me when counting ranges as concentrating on the grid-layer is not necessary.
AND I do like the look. No problem too see the walls/hedges. Looks friendly - is functional -> so what?

Hm - looking at your picture, it looks a little 3d to me too. Like the gray lines have highlights and shades - like that too.

So finally - how do you like the game?

[WO1GKW]

Airborne82nd,
I have a number of ATS titles and the both LNL games now. I play solo mainly and I'd recommend LNL for ease of play. I like the ATS historical maps (Arnhem is great)

[Magua]

ORIGINAL: Ichibrothers

I don't recall saying that there was anything " wrong" with the grid highlight...just I didn't like it at first...and now I like it very much. Just because you may not like it does not make it "wrong".

Boy, that's bending words. My point was that if so many people had a concern about this issue during the developmental stage, why were these concerns not listened to. First impressions are crucial.

As for not "calling" Mark on it....that is an assumption on your part. We all have put our two cents in on every aspect of the game, but in the end, it is Mark's name on the box not ours.

I'm not making any assumptions. I simply said that this whole thing had the distinct feel of a type of situation I've seen in business over and over again. The boss says "let's make an Edsel," and an Edsel gets made, regardless of the fact that there's a concensus that an edsel is not a very good idea.

I'm sorry you don't like it. If my telling you..."you will get used to it"....is considered flip, then you may want to read my post again. I did not tell you "to get used to it". I simply stated that you will get used to it after playing for awhile...maybe even come to like it.

Ichi, amigo, please don't take it so specifically. Practically all of the responses said something along these lines.

But, you have your opinion and I have mine. Hopefully you will enjoy the game as much as I have in spite of your concerns over the graphics.

Well thanks. I hope so too, and like you, I probably will get used to it. As silly as this sounds coming from me, while I dislike the halos, I certainly don't think they are a game-killer, by a long shot. My last post was aimed more at addressing the responses to the complaint.

So, I got the thing blown way out of proportion, which over time you will see it is something that I am outstanding at doing, and now I think I've said more than enough about it.

Now on to funner stuff. [;)]

M

[Ichibrothers]

ORIGINAL: Magua

Now on to funner stuff. [;)]

ROGER THAT!

Bill

[rakatosh]

[:'(] Not so fast! I also think the hexlines are ugly and very unneccesary, and why is there a big smokestack in each hex [&:] one could think it was a map of Isengard during the reign of Saruman.
I was doing a Aide De Camp 2 set for the game and noticed there was a stone wall in a hexside, I had to look really close to see it, a map should be clear on all important details But this extra white outlines effectively hides nearly all of the wall!
I started my ADC2 set whith the original hex outline, including the smokestack, as overlay, but soon reverted to a simple clean black line hex and no center bullet. ADC2 have an excellent LOS tool which finds the center of each hex automatically, so there was no need for it. I have not even contemplated to play the game before my ADC2 set is ready, but it seems very fine except for this horrible hex outlines and smokestacks!

[aknaton]

To me the maps are way to dark. I would like to see much lighter colours especially the clear (dark grass green) hexes. And then the white around borders and dots wouldnt be necessary. But as the board looks now I fell that the white borders is a positive thing.


But then again this is just a matter of taste and this is really a GREAT game

[CptWaspLuca]

My opinion:
for me the maps are very good, one of the better components of BoH. I'm a little astonished: I have a lot of boardgames and I never thinked "I WANT the map look different! I spent my money..."
Previews of the maps were available from June... but I never heard critics... or I'm missing something?
ACHTUNG: only my opinion, peace

[Bull Man]

The fact that we are having this yeasty discussion demonstrates that this is indeed an issue. It is like the old audiophile adage - If discussion is mostly about the speaker's wonderful sound, and not the music itself, then the sound system is not as good as portended. After all, the point of a sound system is to deliver quality music experience as the system/speakers themselves disappear. The only point I think others and myself are making about the maps is that a better hex-grid design would not have overshadowed the game playing experience itself.

Now as far as:
"never remember hearing critics complaining about maps..."

I must point out as a long-time gamer going back to (sigh) playing Panzerblitz in high school, YES - this has always been apart of the hobby. If publishers accidentally put Stalingrad on the wrong side of the Volga, or a published map's functionality was hampered by not easily being able to distinguish between a stream and a river, don't think for a minute we didn't scream and complain. The only difference is today's information technology has given us a greater voice to be heard, and at the same time game designer/companies a mechanism to respond effectively. With desktop publishing we are ALL empowered to fix and or redesign the components ourselves. I hope Matrix will address the issue somehow, but if they don't I have Photoshop and a quality printer to do it myself. And everyone who is fortunate enough to own the myriad of Squad Leader maps will scan, enlarge, update, and print for unlimited terrain expansion (let's fact it, anyone who has played ASL will recognize the geneses of Lock 'n Load as Squad Leader "lite").

Computer gamers refer to these as "mods" and why should tabletop gaming be any different. I suspect house rules are already proliferating. Maybe I need a new tread on THAT!?

[crabe tambour]

ORIGINAL: Bull Man

let's fact it, anyone who has played ASL will recognize the geneses of Lock 'n Load as Squad Leader "lite").

nope. I played a lot SL and a bit ASL. IMHO, the only thing in common they have is scale. After that, LnL explores new ways, new ideas. LnL covers some point that ASL doesn't. LnL is really not at all a Diet ASL. It's a complete new way of play at this scale. ASLSK is ASL Lite. It has nothing to compare with LnL.
My 2p

[rakatosh]

I agree, Lock `n Load are not SL or ASL. SL did never appeal to me but Lock `n Load did. For whatever reason I do not know. I still have a SL stuffed away some place, meaning to use the scenarios in some other game, I was thinking of Panzer/Armor but that is mainly a tank-game system so it didn't fit in very well. But in Lock `n Load it would fit nicely (apart from the maps, that is).

[j01969]

I think some of us are missing the point of this discussion on the hexside "halo's". Do the halo's on the hexside contribute or detract from game play? I hear supporters of the halo's say that they like the look and it helps to count range, but that's about it. I hear people who do not like the halo's say that they cover up terrain (not all of us have 20/20 vision or 30 year old eyes anymore) and that it is distracting. What's really important hear is not whether we like the look or not, but whether game play is affected by halo's. I don't think counting range would be that much more difficult without the halo's, but I can also understand that terrain features would be covered up by the halo's. So, in my opinion, whether you like the halo's or not, that the halo's detract from game play (however small a detraction it would be).

All in all, I love this game. I am so tired of WWII, but this game has reignited the fire. Halo's or not, I will play this game and play it a lot. I don't like the halo's personally, but I think it is more important to see how it affects play rather than whether we like them or not.

Great game!

[Hannes]

Yes, it is a great game ... but, do you know the game now, or not? hm - anyways: judge it by yourself. There are enough screenshots aroun already - either here, at www.locknloadgame.com or www.boardgamegeek.com .

imho it is fine.

[Teamski]

Hey guys!

I just got the game this last week and I have to to agree: the maps suck with the hex borders. Having played SL and ASL a long time ago before I got majorly disgruntled with the system, I was absolutely thrilled to see a fresh game come out on the subject. Now why cover up all of that gorgeous artwork with the hex borders?? I know this has been a long discussion here, but I hope that a change will be made and new maps offered without the halos. PLEASE!!!! I love to look at the terrain, and this is just unexplainable.

I look forward to EVERY LNL WWII module, it's a beautiful system, but I hope the halos disapprear. Sorry for going off, but it makes a difference!

-Ski

[Larac]

Is there anyway we can get the maps, without the Halos so we can lay our own grid?

You do not need make new hexes, I can lay down a hex overlay, just give us the maps in all the great detail they have.

A download, a purchase, something?

Some type of option would be welcomed, and for the cost of the game, expected.




Lee
Please help folks like me, I think it is a good game. But the maps are rough on my eyes, and sometimes I have to work to figure out what is in the hex.

[markhwalker]

ASL Lite

Nope... ASL was part of the inspiration, but a VERY small part. Seems like folks see the squad with three numbers and go "Aha! It's ASL." Nothing could be further from the truth. LnL is MUCH more realistic than ASL.

I've never seen someone hit the actual inspirations on the head. In case you are wondering, they are Fallout, Battle Hymn, West End Games Fireteam, Leonard Scott's Vietnam novels, and White Wolf's Vampire: The Masquerade. Oh yeah, Dirtside gave me the idea for different die. Uh, and of course Magic the Gathering and all its derivitives that first came up with the idea of reducing rules by putting them on playing cards.

Oh, and platoon. I played AH's Platoon one evening with my daughter. Liked it, but saw some holes. I said to myself, "Self, quit critiquing, and start designing." A day later, I had playable LnL infantry rules.

Halo

Besides being the greatest FPS in the history of video games, it also looks great on LnL maps. I hear you all, but I'll say this. I have NEVER spoken with anyone who has played the game for any length of time, who iusn't a huge halo fan. They grow on you. Which is good, because we'll always have them.

Best,

Mark

[Magua]

ORIGINAL: markhwalker


Nope... ASL was part of the inspiration, but a VERY small part. Seems like folks see the squad with three numbers and go "Aha! It's ASL." Nothing could be further from the truth. LnL is MUCH more realistic than ASL.

I kinda look at LnL as sort of an anti-ASL. It does all the things I wished ASL had done years ago. In fact, one of the problems I always had with that system was that when my guys took fire they'd have all their money taken away from them. What was that all about? [:'(]