The use of abreviations :)

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asgrrr
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Post by asgrrr »

Originally posted by fat slob:


Like me, we pick them up after being exposed to them on many different forums and websites.
It's part and parcel of using the Internet, like it or not.
So lay off of the American bashing!

Overusing abbreviations is simply bad manners, and reflects poorly on the individual, american or not. It is a temptation to resist. If a group or nationality has more difficulty resisting it than others, it reflects badly on that group or nationality.
And the little joke about VD... that one is not mine, I remember it from an article on Advanced Squad Leader. The author used VD for vehicle dust, apparently from the game's rulebook.
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It clouds your judgement.
richmonder
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Post by richmonder »

To some degree I agree, Asgeir. However, it also runs into the taboo of national stereotyping. As far as I know, the United States is a country of almost 300 million people, and far more culturally diversified than ANY country on the face of the earth by virtue of massive immigration. To be able to stereotype an entire nation, and this one in particular, is a rather difficult task.

But I understand your point in a relative sense.

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: richmonder ]</p>
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troopie
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Post by troopie »

The military acronyms are an attempt to substitute one word for a sentence. They are ment as time savers. But we are not in a hurry here and we should spell out what we mean. Most of the internet abbreviations, LMAO, LOL, are well understood. But we should not use IMHO the absurdities like j00z l33t d00Ds. Whatever in H**l that meant.


Let us say what we mean.

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RichardTheFirst
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Post by RichardTheFirst »

Unfortunately when we talk averages we almost always end in stereotyping and that is always unfair. But nobody here is condemning the Americans (at least I'm not): there are things a lot worst in the world than abbreviating.

I've seen from the posts that you are sensitive to the issue (except some that blame it on the internet eheheh) and I can appreciate it, as some habits are difficult to change. The majority of the reactions prove you want to make an effort so that all the others and I can understand you better. That is good enough for me. My thanks.

[ December 26, 2001: Message edited by: RichardTheFirst ]</p>
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Les_the_Sarge_9_1
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Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

Recently it occurred to me that a certain aspect of my own self was being treated poorly. I had long downplayed it till finally it was no longer funny.
I had in fact been quite commonly acting "intentionally stupid" to make my friends less intimidated by the way I spoke.

But eventually all things wear thin. While my one friend Mike is ok, because that is his personality, I found the phrase "blah blah blah, insert big word here" had lost its humour with me.

Personally, I am proud of the command I possess of my language. I wear it like a badge of accomplishment. To me acronyms are not about anything other than dummying down a persons literacy level.
That is why I am somewhat precise in what I type (if anyone is curious).

I have recently decided (not specifically here on the forum but in my own life actually), to just make my friends peers and persons I interact with, accept that in most cases, its not my problem if they can not understand me clearly.

I only cut slack for those of non english speaking origins. Really annoys me when I can speak with Turks and Japanese persons easier than my local born comrades.

I really hate those silly net based micro words. They are the tools of mainly lazy english speaking persons.

Heck I enjoy telling a person it is trinitrotoluene instead of TNT. I prefer cyanoacrylate instead of crazy glue. And my favourite antidisestablishmentarianism.

Words are a great deal more cool than dumb random letter blotches in posts.

I now return you to something almost entirely likely more interesting eh. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
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Post by panda124c »

Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
It always amused me and amased me the fact that Americans and British people use abbreviations so much. You must be the ones who use this the most in the entire world <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . It is not a critic, just a fact.

I always regarded it as an extra challenge and I didn&#8217;t mind much. But today I just decided to begin asking when I don't understand an abbreviation. After all I wasn't born English and I have no obligation to understand everything. The English Language is already difficult as it is sometimes and there is no dictionary that I know for abbreviations.

I'm also a bit tired to read threads that begins to interest me and abandon the reading because it suddenly turns out too difficult to understand what I'm reading. Doesn't pay the effort.

Some abbreviations are easy for us non-English-speaking people to understand both because they became very common (ASAP, BTW, etc) and others are common "part of the game" expressions (TOE, OOB).

But some one really needs to think a lot before one gets it, and even then sometimes couldn't be completely sure (does IMO means "In My Opinion"?).

Have you English speakers ever consider the implications when you write an abbreviation or you do that on purpose, as a way to try to keep things among yourselves?
I'm just curious... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

I have dubed this as 'txt speech' it's because we read what we write and using abbreviations is easier than writing out a whole sentence on your txt cell phone, or pager. It just means we're efficent (lazy) in our speech.
<img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
IMHO (In my humble opinion) see we can even be gracious in our 'txt speech'
IIRC (If I remember correctly) this is for us old phokes used as a disclamer.
and the ever popular LSMFT <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
pax27
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Post by pax27 »

Someone´s got a sensitive ego if this thread can be described as "American bashing". I guess it was a bit of a joke, but it´s so hard to tell when people don´t use smileys, like <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> to clarify. That´s another thing the web culture has forced on us all, getting our feelings and points through by using a few commas and parenthesis.
I realise the need for abbrevasions and smileys as well, but I can´t say that we use as many abbrevations in Sweden as you guys do in the US. At least not with a straight face <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> (Now you now I was kidding a little when I used a smiley <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> )
On the other hand, the English language contains about 1,000,000 words, and the Swedish about 100,000. Maybe that goes for abbrevations as well.
When I chat I use a few abbrevations, but I hope that no one writes as sloppy IRL <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> as when they chat.
This thread kind of blew up, but you now, sometimes things just gett FUBAR! <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">
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Post by RichardTheFirst »

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:

I only cut slack for those of non english speaking origins. Really annoys me when I can speak with Turks and Japanese persons easier than my local born comrades.

That phrase just gave me an idea: why don't we foreigners give an award for the most comprehensive yet interesting english speaker at this forum? <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

My vote goes to Wild Bill.
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richmonder
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Post by richmonder »

I don't know if the 'American bashing' was a response to my input, but if so I wasn't doing any American defense. More a point of warding off any social stereotyping - I am not into that.

It's funny how threads develop here and which ones get the attention. Interesting social study, I would think.
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pax27
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Post by pax27 »

I don't know if the 'American bashing' was a response to my input, but if so I wasn't doing any American defense. More a point of warding off any social stereotyping - I am not into that.
It's funny how threads develop here and which ones get the attention. Interesting social study, I would think.
I guess it was, I was just so annoyed when someone turned this thread political that I didn´t check whoever that was.
But seriosly richmonder, you´re taking this Political Correctness a bit too far!
I think that it´s quit obvious that there are some differences between cultures, countries and continents.
Based on empirical studies I´ve found that Americans are more sensitive when it comes to their coulture and country. OK, that´s kind of a lame joke, but it does bare some truth to it.
Swedes have their bad/strange manners if one dare to generalize. We drink quite a bit of strong alchole, we´re not very patriotic, we are a very cell-phone dependent people and so one.
What is my point with this, am I some kind of doo-gooder or am I just a moron? IDKYFIO (I Don´t Know, You Figure It Out <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )
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Post by Capt. Pixel »

Languages are a funny thing. Each of them evolves and changes as social pressures change.

If the pressure is more or less stable, a language will survive many years without much change.

If the pressure becomes extreme, (more so, or less so), then the language may undergo radical changes in a short period of time.

Extreme examples of this would include a language totally dying out due to destruction of its supporting society, or a language (Latin, for instance, or 'eg.' for those that care) that has existed unchanged for centuries. Is this because of a minimum of change in Catholic Church supporting structure, perhaps? <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

In the United States, since the turn of the century, we have seen a unique experiment in the blending (or blenderizing? <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> )of people from all over the planet. Each culture has brought with it, not only their verbal languages, but also their physical language and cultural expressions such as Theology, diet, and others (et al - I love doing that. Who says Latin is dead?)

Speaking of physical language, I understand the meaning of the three-knuckle BOHICA (Bend Over Here I Comes Again), also known as "The Italian Wave". But can anyone tell me where the American abbreviation, which consists of a fist with the longest finger sticking straight out and up, comes from? (I find myself curious about the strangest things sometimes)

Anyway, the USA (United States of America - hmm maybe it started there? <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> ) is throwing this big, century long party, and mingeled into the mix is Technology. Drum Rolllll. Everybody gets to go wherever they want (mobility), and multi-media is thrust at them from nearly every direction (communication). <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

This planet has seen an increase in technology that is unparalleled in it's history. The pressure to name new devices and try to maintain a verbal language that's descriptive and flexible without being overly cumbersome to speak on any regular basis, is intense.

The more common, (older), examples of this phenomena include: TV - television, Car (?) - automobile, Plane - Airplane.

"She's a TV" doesn't mean that "she's a television". The context is defined by the object, 'she'. A more likely translation in this example might be "She's a trans-vestite" (a person who wears clothing of the opposite sex).

"Go get the plane" This could mean: "Go get the airplane" or "Go get the plane" (a carpenters tool for shaving wood). The audience must decide.

And underlying problem that non-native English speakers may not realize, is that many times native speakers don't understand what they're talking about because of cross-definitions of acronyms (phrases abbreviated to several representative letters). (VD is a fine example. Venerial Disease or Vehicle Dust). Or, the speaker misuses or misspells the word. Examples like 'to', 'too' and 'two' and (my personal favorites) 'there', 'their' and 'they're', are rife in electronic communications.

Collectively, we've become too lazy to bother with utilizing the established rules of the English language.

It becomes the reponsibility of the audience to determine the appropriate context of the discussion. If the audience doesn't understand the context, or has an overwhelming urge to only recognize a single context, then the message is not traveling from the speaker to the audience clearly.

This is where the real shame of this language modification (ie. abbreviations, acronyms) lies. If you're not communicating clearly because of a confusion of terms, then this form of communication will eventually die out. It's not efficient. I don't, however believe that it will completely disappear. Too many abbreviations and angelicized terms have infiltrated into the worlds societies to expire completely.

Also, our form of communicating has been modified through the Internet. Sometimes, witty or snide or totally inocuous comments can be mis-interpreted as witless, snide or inocuous comments, to the detriment of the audience.

So we (the collective 'we', meaning, of course, all persons of race, creed or color or sexual persuasion, without impyling an reduced consideration for anyone not mentioned in the aforementioned list - TCWMOCAPORCOCOSPWIARCFANMITAL), have started to include emoticons (smiley/angry/stupid faces) to forward a 'physical' expression along with the text. It used to be that we'd use proper punctuation, spelling and grammar to express ourselves. But that seems to have fallen by the way-side.

Which of the above examples of a disclaimer do YOU prefer? <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

I swear (really, I do!), the english language changes on a daily basis. Even those of us who claim to be native speakers, (40+ years here, I think I started talking late - took a few years to understand this gibberish), can't keep up with all the new, old, discarded, re-invented, resurrected, 50's, retro-, this '-speak', that '-speak'. We just 'Keep on Truckin' <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

My advice to non-native English speakers is "Don't sweat the small stuff" (what the h**l does he mean by that?? - don't give consideration to the small things in your life).
If your message is getting through (not 'thru' <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> ) to your audience, then you're accomplishing your goal. You're doing at least as well as a native speaker. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

By the way, those of you with command of multiple languages have my enduring awe. As many of you may know, foreign language is not a required course in most USA schools. As a result, I believe Americans have suffered severely in their humanities educations.

To know a socities language is the first insight into their hearts and minds.

For those of you who bothered to read this entire diatribe - thanks for the soapbox, I hope it was clear enough for everyone here in the forum to understand, and for any punctuation errors, I apologize.

This was fun - I should ramble more often - NOT!
"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson
Les_the_Sarge_9_1
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Post by Les_the_Sarge_9_1 »

Who cares why this thread began, Cpt Pixel that was a very well done post.
I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.
richmonder
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Post by richmonder »

That was an excellent post!

I wonder how my deceased aunt, who was a guest speaker and teacher at Oxford (English teacher), would respond to the continuing 'evolution' of the English language. Indeed, some even feel it's a disintegration.

I especially liked the part about the social 'pressures' affecting a language's status, for lack of a better, more accurate term. I'd never quite thought of it that way, but in fact that is something that influences a language.

PC? PC - me? (Break out the Dr. Seuss)

PC.
PC-me?
Could that be - a PC me?
PC this, PC that,
PC make me wanna take a shat.

OK, so I won't be doing any books anytime soon.

Seriously - or half-heartedly - I'm not trying to be PC. Never, thank you (but I don't want to be callous, either). I probably will be way ahead of many non-US peoples in line when it comes to smacking the US culture. But I was trying to avert a flame war, Pax27 - that's all. Of late - when that discussion had gone down - the board was getting a bit testy over the v7.0 upheaval and I was getting frayed myself. So I hope you understand. To be forthright, unless you live in the USA, you have no idea how annoying it can be at times. You *think* you know as an outsider, but trust me - you do not. :-)
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RichardTheFirst
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Post by RichardTheFirst »

Yeah, excellent post. Is long enough and have many 5 dollar words, TYVM (thank you very much). Either we get abbreviations or we have to go to the dictionary all the time. Jezz...

I'm developing my English a lot, because so far this thread is the one that made me go more often to the dictionary.

After all my English sucks and I didn't know... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[ December 29, 2001: Message edited by: RichardTheFirst ]</p>
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fat slob
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Post by fat slob »

Originally posted by pax27:

I guess it was, I was just so annoyed when someone turned this thread political that I didn´t check whoever that was.
)

Hypocrite!
You are the one that turned it political when you said: "It's bad enough when Americans use abbreviations..."

So is using abbreviations worse than being a hypocrite to a Swede?
fat slob
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Post by fat slob »

Originally posted by pax27:
Someone´s got a sensitive ego if this thread can be described as "American bashing".
It's not possible that it has anything to do with having a sensitive ego, since I happen to be Canadian and not American.
But using acronyms has nothing at all to do with being American as you and others have insinuated.
It has everything to do with the Internet which happens to be frequented by a lot of English speakers which includes America, England, Australia, Canada...well, you get the idea.
:-)
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Post by jonypure »

I'm now just getting into this game and for the longest time "PBEM" was an abbreviation that had no known definition. I finaly came across the meaning when I got tired of playing the A1. Thanks to those who brought this to light and those who posted the list's that sit comfortably in my briefcase for reference. But you both forgot "PBEM".
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Post by Tomanbeg »

Originally posted by RichardTheFirst:
It always amused me and amased me the fact that Americans and British people use abbreviations so much. You must be the ones who use this the most in the entire world <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> . It is not a critic, just a fact.

I always regarded it as an extra challenge and I didn&#8217;t mind much. But today I just decided to begin asking when I don't understand an abbreviation. After all I wasn't born English and I have no obligation to understand everything. The English Language is already difficult as it is sometimes and there is no dictionary that I know for abbreviations.

I'm also a bit tired to read threads that begins to interest me and abandon the reading because it suddenly turns out too difficult to understand what I'm reading. Doesn't pay the effort.

Some abbreviations are easy for us non-English-speaking people to understand both because they became very common (ASAP, BTW, etc) and others are common "part of the game" expressions (TOE, OOB).

But some one really needs to think a lot before one gets it, and even then sometimes couldn't be completely sure (does IMO means "In My Opinion"?).

Have you English speakers ever consider the implications when you write an abbreviation or you do that on purpose, as a way to try to keep things among yourselves?
I'm just curious... <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

No. English speakers cannot ever consider implications. There is no need to anyway, that is what the French do. The Jargon of anagrams(or is it acronyms? help me Ben)is mostly an Americian thing. Allstair Cooke has done several 'letters from america' on it. Go To BBC and do a search. It is mostly a time saver. It is a lot faster to Type IMO then 'In My Opinon' IIRC then If I Remember Correctly, FOTFLMAO then Rolling on the Floor, Laughing My Ass Off. Cooke Said this corruption of English started during WW2, when there were a lot of young americans in England.
And you can either ask, or look it up. Someone (one of the Universities, Carnagie-Mellon I think) has an online dictionary of 'net slang'
If we want to keep things among ourselves, English is a superb language for talking around a subject without ever actually talking about the subject. It is not considered polite, however. And then there is Pig Latin. My Brothers and I used to speak pig latin while riding the subway in Tokoyo. Drive the JN's(Japanese Nationals) right up the wall. Pig Latin is a way of changing order and emphisis (syllabication?) while speaking American that makes it imposible to understand unless it is your native language. Here, try one. Ig-Pay atin-Lay is ard-HAy. And English isn't that hard, Try Fortran some time.
T.(who left you a clue)
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RichardTheFirst
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Post by RichardTheFirst »

Originally posted by jonypure:
But you both forgot "PBEM".
Happy Holidays

PBEM means "Play By E-Mail", Jony. And BTW (by the way) welcome to the Fans (read your message).

<img src="smile.gif" border="0">
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Capt. Pixel
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Post by Capt. Pixel »

RichardTheFirst (or RTF as some refer to you) <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Yes that contained many 5 dollar words and, no doubt, confusion among some less adept in the language. Four decades of attempted literacy will do that to you. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

We don't EVEN want to discuss how much those words cost me in 70's dollars. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

I only speak and write one language fluently (?), so I figure that I should always give it my best attempt.

It's not that you've said or implied anything that irritated me. In fact, quite the opposite. It got me to thinking about general use of our language in today's culture.

It seems that not only abbreviation in terms of letters, but in terms of whole or partial word combinations, too.

"wassup?" translates to - what is happening in your life??? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

And if that wasn't enough, we find ourselves so short of syllabizations that we fill in the 'dead air space' with invective phrases such as WTF, G@d%mn, f##kin, and many, many others.

If efficiency of communication was a driving criteria, then why add in the useless (and offensive) additional words?

Is it common in other languages to add many (and I mean many) swear words to their everyday conversation? (Like parents talking to children, for instance)

It's kind of sad, yet interesting, to watch a language that is currently so dynamic literally build itself up and tear itself down over the period of just a few decades. But it's fascinating to me. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
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