Experienced Jap airmen mean nada

[Feinder]

Oh, and by the way, for all the allied players who cry about how powerful Japan is early in the war, etc, etc., trying playing Japan.

I -do- play Japan. Japan -IS- very powerful early war.

But it also gets clobbered when the advanced Allied fighters come out. I lost 350 planes YESTERDAY in my game vs. Ollie (shot down maybe 8 of his). Difference being I didn't post an inflamatory whine-fest on the board.

-F-

[TheElf]

ORIGINAL: marky

training isnt always everything. look at it this way. If youre Mario Andretti but you drive a Geo Metro wat will happen? [:D]

The problem with this generalization as it pertains to the original posters situation is that a Tony is one of the better Japanese Fighters, excepting Range and perhaps maintainability. In the Real world if you got 100+ Tonys airborne with the type of pilots DDLAfan is describing the P-47s would have to have several key factors in their favor at the beginning of the engagement to do anywhere near the damage that seems have been done here.

I'm talking Altitude, airspeed, Numerical superiority of at least 2 to 1 if not more, and an overall EXP level equal to or exceeding that of the Tony pilots. Even then a Highly experienced IJAAF Tony Group should be able minimize casualties due to sheer EXP such that the casualties are nowhere near as bloody as this.

Long story short in comparison to a P-47 the Tony is not as bad as a Metro.

DDLAfan, it is a well known fact that the Air Routine (there isn't a model) does not handle large Air battles well and this is the kind of all too common result of the typical one-upsmanship game most PBEM players play. They assume that by concentrating all their Air units in one place they will be better off. Try spreading your forces out and hurting your opponent in many different places so that you have many smaller battles instead of one big one. THAT is a more realistic way to fight in the Pacific, with a few exceptions of course.

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Oh, and by the way, for all the allied players who cry about how powerful Japan is early in the war, etc, etc., trying playing Japan.

I -do- play Japan. Japan -IS- very powerful early war.

But it also gets clobbered when the advanced Allied fighters come out. I lost 350 planes YESTERDAY in my game vs. Ollie (shot down maybe 8 of his). Difference being I didn't post an inflamatory whine-fest on the board.

-F-

So what's more offensive to this board (I ask rhetorically as your opinion is clear) a possible subjective viewpoint as to whether someone whines or not, or the objective offense your avatar poses? Beam in your eye perhaps?

[invernomuto]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I -do- play Japan. Japan -IS- very powerful early war.

But it also gets clobbered when the advanced Allied fighters come out. I lost 350 planes YESTERDAY in my game vs. Ollie (shot down maybe 8 of his). Difference being I didn't post an inflamatory whine-fest on the board.

-F-

350 vs 8 is a very big game problem, not a whine.

I hope the new devs will focus on tuning A2A model, such results are plain absurd...

Bye.

[Feinder]

Invernomuto, I completely agree that the (large scale) air to air model in WitP "needs a lot of work".

My response to DDLFan was that quite simply, his assumption that Allied playes had/don't play Japan, is quite incorrect. I do play both sides. His post reflects the same myopic view-point that he is accusing "the Allied fan-boys" of.

I play PBEM as both Allies and Japan. I can see both sides of the spectrum quite well, despite DDLFan's juvenile finger-pointing.

Cheers.
-F-

[esteban]

Faced with 2-1 or 3-1 odds, against good Japanese pilots in decent fighters, those Thunderbolts should have lost half their number or more at the cost of maybe the same number of Japanese fighters.

[elxaime]

Hi -

I am the Allied player on the other side of this December 1943 massacre (the Japan player is my brother).

In actuality the Allies had a numerical advantage in this fight.

The Allies had roughly 100 RAF Thunderbolt II's and 25 RNAF Corsair IV's flying from Akyab against 100 JAAF Tony based out of Rangoon.

The T-bolt squadrons had all spent several weeks attacking Jap ground targets in Burma, so their average experience levels were all in the low to mid-70's. The Corsair IV's averaged in the mid-70's. This means that, while the Japanese had some good pilots in the 80's and 90's, so did the Allies. Overall, I think the Allied pilots average experience levels were 5-10 points higher than the Japanese.

Plus, this was a fighter sweep, so the Allies were all coming in at maximum altitude and generally got the "bounce" in the first few rounds. The result was 100 Tonys flamed vs 6 T-bolts. The sweep was followed by about 350 or so Liberators who erased the remaining 50 or so Japanese fighters on the airstrip.

We have halted our game for other reasons (the disappearing leader and disappearing units bugs have basically just worn us down from wanting to play on) but I told my bro' my sense was that this result was within reason given the quality of the Allied squadrons and planes, the type of mission, etc.

I think we both agree though that the air combat model is too bloody. It doesn't account for limited ammo in each planes guns, the numbers of planes that historically didn't actually engage during fights (abort, etc.) and generally the fact that squadrons tend to have more planes in "ready" status than they did historically.

The conclusion I draw from this is that the Japanese, even with the most sophisticated pilot training programs and player-controlled upgrades, simply cease being competitive in the air with the Allies once the new US aircraft types are deployed in numbers. While tweaking the air model might spread out the carnage, I don't think it changes the overall situation.

Anyway just hope this helps debate.

[Big B]

ORIGINAL: elxaime

Hi -

I am the Allied player on the other side of this December 1943 massacre (the Japan player is my brother).

Ooooohhh - In my house an incident like that would have led to the usual insults followed by bare knuckles![X(] [:D]

[Black Mamba 1942]

I hope you are correct![:D]

In a current PBEM, by 20 Dec 41, the Japanese have lost 560 ac vs 450 Allied ac.
Enterprise lost, Shokaku and Kaga lost, all outside Pearl.

The entire Central Pacific has been overwhelmed in less than 2 weeks.
Midway, Palmyra, Johnston, Christmas, and Noumea![:D]

Hong Kong is still barely holding out.
It's the longest defense there that I've ever seen.[X(]

I'm hoping this aggressive style by the Japanese will really come back to bite them in 42.[;)]
I should also note that the IJN player opted not to strike PH on turn one to conserve ac.[;)]

[elxaime]

One of the reasons I play Allies against my brother as Japan is I can be sure he will stick it out once the tide turns.

I had heard that unfortunately it is pretty common for Japan players to disappear from WITP PBEM games once the early "fun" part of the war is over for them.

I have had that happen in other PBEM wargaming. You play the side that is on the defense and you get your head beaten in for the first part of the game. Then, just as you anticipate your reward for sticking it out and surviving, your PBEM opponent goes poof. Bummer.

[Feinder]

I had heard that unfortunately it is pretty common for Japan players to disappear from WITP PBEM games once the early "fun" part of the war is over for them.

It has been my obersation actually that the Japanese players actually do stick around much better than some allied players (from reading the various AARs). I think part of the reason is that with fewer Japanese players, they have more games going, and are often more experienced because of that. In the case of Allied players, esp new ones going against a seasoned Japanese player, he -WILL- get killed (many Allied players are way over-anxious, myself included in early games). That's a bad mix, because Allied player losses 5x CVs in March, and the Pearl Harbor is getting invaded.

Good luck playing with your brother. It can be fun, it can also get very competitive (I used to play against my brother Knavey in Uncommon Valor). Now one of my PBEM games is Knavey and I have a team game going against LtFightr and Kbullard. It's fun to be on the same side for a change (Knavey is USN, I'm everybody else).

[Charles2222]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

Invernomuto, I completely agree that the (large scale) air to air model in WitP "needs a lot of work".

My response to DDLFan was that quite simply, his assumption that Allied playes had/don't play Japan, is quite incorrect. I do play both sides. His post reflects the same myopic view-point that he is accusing "the Allied fan-boys" of.

I play PBEM as both Allies and Japan. I can see both sides of the spectrum quite well, despite DDLFan's juvenile finger-pointing.

Cheers.
-F-

Oh Feinder, tell me you're trying to be funny. Juvenile Finger-pointing? Yeah, that's it, you're just trying to be funny.