Changes?

Don Shafer · Post by **Don Shafer** » Wed Aug 16, 2000 3:33 am

RCMP,
That's part of the thrill of the game is putting all the lousy tanks in the West and Italian Fronts. That's where the historically ended up until the invasion of Italy and France.
As for air transports, what Guderian could have done if he would have had adequate air transport! If a person allocates his air to transport, that's their decision. Another great part of the game, to be able to use you're resources where you want!

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Don Shafer Commander of Army Group Shafer

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Wed Aug 16, 2000 7:58 am

Originally posted by Don Shafer:
RCMP,
That's part of the thrill of the game is putting all the lousy tanks in the West and Italian Fronts. That's where the historically ended up until the invasion of Italy and France.

Do you actually have evidence for this? As I've always understood things, damaged units being rebuilt ended up getting the most recent weaponry, except for the Waffen SS, and maybe other elite, or special, units. Many units after being mauled in the East were sent to the West for rest and refit, thus they would be getting the better, newer tanks. Remember, the Germans had Tiger tanks in N.Africa, and the German tanks the Brits faced in the fight for Caen weren't PzIIs.

RCMP is right I believe. The algorithm used to calc German strength in N.Africa and the West should take into count the quality of the tanks.

As for air transports, what Guderian could have done if he would have had adequate air transport! If a person allocates his air to transport, that's their decision.

Air supply of large units failed to work for the German Army in the Stalingrad pocket, it certainly shouldn't succeed in suppling 8 Corps, especially if some of them are panzer divisions, heck, there's no way they could transport replacement tanks to these units. Imagine trying to fit a Tiger tank in a C47.

Another great part of the game, to be able to use you're resources where you want!

The problem is you don't face the consequences of those actions. Thats what's wrong here. If you had to suffer the consequences of sending Rommel only PzIIs and Italian motorized coffins, *then* I'd say you could allow the player to control where the resources go.

[This message has been edited by Ed Cogburn (edited August 16, 2000).]

Don Shafer · Post by **Don Shafer** » Fri Aug 18, 2000 2:45 am

Who's the troll? Every forum you post to Ed you seem to argue everything. Instead of posting on these forums, why don't you design and code you're own game? Obviously it would do no good to refute you're points, since you appear to have served in every branch of service in every theatre of WWII. I humbly concede to you're superior wisdom. (Dripping with sarcasm, in case you haven't noticed)

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Don Shafer Commander of Army Group Shafer

sbond · Post by **sbond** » Sat Aug 19, 2000 6:44 am

Was wondering if anyone has the problem of a small screen when playing the old WIR? and if this is something to be fixed or is it just me that has a small play windown inside of the main window....PacWar is the same way..

sbond · Post by **sbond** » Sat Aug 19, 2000 7:08 am

Not to begin a historical debate but the Stalingrad pocket could have been resupplied by air if the supplies were in range. Most of the supplies where stuck back at Minsk.. So I agree with DS they could have been much better supplied using major airlifts. But anyway I like the airlift option in the game...and I do not remember a unit getting new equipment from airlifts, since after they run away from thier HQ they lose the ability to be reinforced, so putting a PIV in a DO17 or JU52 never needs to happen. Now they did put light armor and jeeps in C47 but I think the German Military was lacking in its supply of C47's

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sat Aug 19, 2000 8:07 am

Originally posted by sbond:
Was wondering if anyone has the problem of a small screen when playing the old WIR? and if this is something to be fixed or is it just me that has a small play windown inside of the main window....PacWar is the same way..

I have never had a problem with running the game full screen (I have not tried Pac War recently, but don't think I had a problem with it ever). Sorry I don't have any ideas about your problem.

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Rick Bancroft

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sat Aug 19, 2000 4:21 pm

Originally posted by Don Shafer:
Who's the troll?

I should have used the word "information" instead of "evidence". "Evidence" has a bad connotation. Sorry about that. I really was interested in a source that explained how Germany distributed its resources to the major fronts. This was never an attack on you.

Ed Cogburn · Post by **Ed Cogburn** » Sun Aug 20, 2000 12:22 pm

Originally quoted by sbond:

...
the Stalingrad pocket could have been resupplied by air if the supplies were in range. Most of the supplies where stuck back at Minsk.. So I agree with DS they could have been much better supplied using major airlifts. But anyway I like the airlift option in the game
...

Please look at this: http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/evalunote.html

The commander of the LI Army Corps is basically telling the commander of the 6th Army Group that supply by air is impossible. The 6th Army Group was simply too large a military unit for an airlift operation to succeed.

RickyB · Post by **RickyB** » Sun Aug 20, 2000 7:45 pm

Originally posted by Ed Cogburn:
Please look at this: http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/evalunote.html

The commander of the LI Army Corps is basically telling the commander of the 6th Army Group that supply by air is impossible. The 6th Army Group was simply too large a military unit for an airlift operation to succeed.

The 6th Army and other units were estimated in one case to need about 500+ tons daily to meet their minimum supply requirements (I have read another source that said 200 daily would have at least kept the men going better). This would have taken about 225 Ju 52 flights each and every day, or more using bombers to carry supplies in. With the bad weather during this time frame and the limited plane numbers, this was not feasible. Good weather would have helped, but even then the Luftwaffe would not have been able to lift enough in. The Luftwaffe lifted about 180 tons on their best day, but many days got nothing in.

I think the game makes it too easy to keep cutoff spearheads supplied and able to move forward, when typically the Germans were only able to airlift some gasoline and critical parts forward. However, in the blitzkrieg phase, the spearheads avoided combat as much as possible and so gasoline was their most critical need. Maybe their ammunition stocks were enough to continue the forward momentum until a stong defensive line was reached. Maybe the game does okay for this, as the supply levels and readiness of air supplied units are not very high.

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Rick Bancroft
Semper Fi

[This message has been edited by RickyB (edited August 20, 2000).]

RCMP · Post by **RCMP** » Mon Aug 21, 2000 3:19 am

I just have a hard time understanding how, up to 9-15 Pz Divisions can recieve enough supply from air transport to keep them at, at least supply level 3 indefinitly.....it seems that flanks or road supply lines have no meaning. Dont get me wrong I use the same tactic when playing the germans it just doesn't seem appropriate to keep so many Divisions supplied for so long a period. From what limited knowledge I have I do not believe that the Axis could provide so much airlift capability. Maybe the load lifts of certain aircraft could be reduced? A thought.....

Another suggestion would be the fact that there are not enough Corps/Armies. Often I will have 30+ Div's in my HQ however cannot place them in new Corps/Armies on the map due to the fact I have run out of Corps "counters". I guess this was just a game limitation of the time. It would be a little more realistic to have these units engaged in some productive measures ie digging in to make the next line?
I can of course place them in existing Corps/Armies however It seems difficult to set up several "defensive lines" without more Amrmies/Corps.

Thanks Guys

Bill aka Bearwolfen · Sun Aug 27, 2000 12:05 pm

Originally posted by RCMP:
I just have a hard time understanding how, up to 9-15 Pz Divisions can recieve enough supply from air transport to keep them at, at least supply level 3 indefinitly.....it seems that flanks or road supply lines have no meaning. Dont get me wrong I use the same tactic when playing the germans it just doesn't seem appropriate to keep so many Divisions supplied for so long a period. From what limited knowledge I have I do not believe that the Axis could provide so much airlift capability. Maybe the load lifts of certain aircraft could be reduced? A thought.....

Another suggestion would be the fact that there are not enough Corps/Armies. Often I will have 30+ Div's in my HQ however cannot place them in new Corps/Armies on the map due to the fact I have run out of Corps "counters". I guess this was just a game limitation of the time. It would be a little more realistic to have these units engaged in some productive measures ie digging in to make the next line?
I can of course place them in existing Corps/Armies however It seems difficult to set up several "defensive lines" without more Amrmies/Corps.

Thanks Guys

I don't know if you got any response yet?
Your view is well taken and I'll take this
Airlift and the auxillary units units issue
up with the WIR Team here at Matrix.
I may not get back but your observations are
relevant.
bill velovich