What was Britian thinking

[Ron Saueracker]

Guess PDUs were not in widespread use IRL.[:D]

[Andy Mac]

Mi read post

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: madmickey

British torpedoes were more reliable than US torpedoes at the start of the war as long as they did not use magnetic exploders.

I think they had those figured out by the time of the Bismark saga, no?

The British Navy still seems to like small carriers with planes that have limited range, would the Argentine Air Force wrecked so much havoc on the RN if the Brits were using American style carriers and planes?

I would argue that likes and dislikes hardly figure into it. I'm sure the RN would have loved to field a dozen behemoths the size of the Nimitz. The plain and sad truth was that they couldnt afford it. I cant say if they British powers-that-be were justified in slashing the military budgets to half past nothing, but the fact is that they did.

A more legitimate criticism of RN and Lord Louis Battenberg (a.k.a. Mountbatten butchers of Canadian at Dieppe) was it lack of offensive operation on the Burma coast from the second half of 1944 onwards.

The distinct impression I got from the Sommerville Papers was that the standing opinon among RN brass was that there was absolutely no legitimate reason to risk His Majesty's Ships in Burma at all. Later on, (see The Forgotten Fleet) they did run a few operations along the coast, trying to intercept barge convoys, shoot up radio and radar stations and the like. But even then nothing bigger than a DD was involved. Incidentally, they did sink an IJN CA down there in about that time frame (maybe a bit later).

[Terminus]

ORIGINAL: madmickey

A more legitimate criticism of RN and Lord Louis Battenberg (a.k.a. Mountbatten butchers of Canadian at Dieppe) was it lack of offensive operation on the Burma coast from the second half of 1944 onwards.

What the hell did this have to do with the Swordfish???

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: madmickey

A more legitimate criticism of RN and Lord Louis Battenberg (a.k.a. Mountbatten butchers of Canadian at Dieppe) was it lack of offensive operation on the Burma coast from the second half of 1944 onwards.

What the hell did this have to do with the Swordfish???

I think what he's trying to say is that instead of blasting the Brits for using Swordfish, we could be discussing their bigger strategic failures.

Anyway, dont you have to sacrifice a goat to The Tread today or something?

[Terminus]

Wow, two dumbasses for the price of one...[8|]

[Onime No Kyo]

Watch your language young man. Unlike you, I have the ability to be bored without having to offer a prayer to the almighty Thread.

[Andy Mac]

The RN didnt want to do anything off Burma the view was it was a total waste of time when the critical point was in CentPac

Churchill had to virtually force them to prepare for ops there on Political grounds not Military.

Also dont forget about th emonsoon restricting opportuniteis and ships take time to get from Overlord/Anvil to India its not a quick task

[madmickey]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Wow, two dumbasses for the price of one...[8|]

Typical from a country that surrendered in 2 minutes.

[madmickey]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

ORIGINAL: madmickey

British torpedoes were more reliable than US torpedoes at the start of the war as long as they did not use magnetic exploders.

I think they had those figured out by the time of the Bismark saga, no?

correct term is after the Bismarck saga.

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

The RN didnt want to do anything off Burma the view was it was a total waste of time when the critical point was in CentPac

Churchill had to virtually force them to prepare for ops there on Political grounds not Military.

Also dont forget about th emonsoon restricting opportuniteis and ships take time to get from Overlord/Anvil to India its not a quick task

Not sure what Churchill forced them to do that youre referring to. Could you refresh my memory please?

AKAIK, they ran penny packet ops along the Burma coast for most of '44 but it was never anything significant. Mostly because there was hardly anything to do there. They did have a large-ish amphibious "Hail Mary" type of deal planned for later but it became a moot point when the Japanese front in Burma collapsed and the Indians marched into Rangoon with virtually no opposition.

[dtravel]

I don't know what Britain was thinking, but just the idea of a large island being cognitive is scarey enough! [X(]

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: madmickey

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Wow, two dumbasses for the price of one...[8|]

Typical from a country that surrendered in 2 minutes.

I think it was Shakespeare who said it best..... [;)]

[Andy Mac]

Churchill wanted operations against Sumatra, Andaman Islands and Burma in 44 but the COS talked him out of it the RN was especially opposed to them and there were extensive debates on what was the role of the RN on the war against japan should be. (My source for most of this is the Alanbrooke diaries so as with all diaries it may be biased),

Politically the recapture of Burma/Malaya was important for post war imperial politicial reasons militarily it was viewed as marginal by COS better to use limited resources against targets on main line of advance.

I think discussions were had as to whether it should be a TF supporting CENTPAC the RN helping SWPAC or even a seperate commonwealth attack out of North Aus. (I think Brooke was in favour of supporting Mac as he was a great fan of MacArthur)

They finally settled on supporting Centpac not that I think King was particularily happy about it !!!!

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: dtravel

I don't know what Britain was thinking, but just the idea of a large island being cognitive is scarey enough! [X(]

In that case, "the world wonders" would just about give you apoplectic(sp?) fits. [:D]

[madmickey]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

The RN didnt want to do anything off Burma the view was it was a total waste of time when the critical point was in CentPac

Churchill had to virtually force them to prepare for ops there on Political grounds not Military.

Also dont forget about th emonsoon restricting opportuniteis and ships take time to get from Overlord/Anvil to India its not a quick task

Landing in southern Burma could have been used to cutoff the Jap line of communication to troops fighting in India and Northern Burma plus Singapore and Malaysia. Look at the amount of British Empire troops used did they not hear of The Island hoping or bypassing strong point strategy. After the 2nd Battle of Philippine Sea and later Leyte Gulf the Jap fleet was not a threat. Lord Louis Battenberg should not have even been given command of the destroyer Kelly.

[rtrapasso]

they had a flying stringbag for a torpedo bomber

Going back to the original premise... by early WW2, the Swordfish had been modified to be used as a NIGHT torpedo bomber. It was equipped with Air-Surface radar, and when used in this role it obtained astonishing results (witness Taranto, carried out at night).

Of course, in WITP, nothing of this sort can be done. So, the question shouldn't be, "What was Britain thinking", it should be "What was 3x5/Matrix thinking?"

BTW - don't think Britain had her torpedo problems solved by the time of the Bismarck saga - IIRC, the British accidentally attacked one of their own cruisers with Swordfish, and one of the reasons the cruiser wasn't struck was some of the magnetic torpedo detonators malfunctioned at the relatively high Northern latitude, and exploded when they hit the water. i could be wrong about this, though.

[dtravel]

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

ORIGINAL: dtravel

I don't know what Britain was thinking, but just the idea of a large island being cognitive is scarey enough! [X(]

In that case, "the world wonders" would just about give you apoplectic(sp?) fits. [:D]

[rtrapasso]

BTW - don't think Britain had her torpedo problems solved by the time of the Bismarck saga - IIRC, the British accidentally attacked one of their own cruisers with Swordfish, and one of the reasons the cruiser wasn't struck was some of the magnetic torpedo detonators malfunctioned at the relatively high Northern latitude, and exploded when they hit the water. i could be wrong about this, though.

This from one history of the Bismarck:

"The Ark Royal launched a first strike of 15 Swordfish at 14.50 but mistook HMS Sheffield for the target.

A tragedy was only averted because the magnetic pistols fitted to the torpedoes malfunctioned when dropped in the very steep seas running several detonated on hitting the water, and the Shefield was able to dodge the remainder. The incident was turned to advantage when the Shefield signaled the Ark Royal, so that for the second strike the Duplex pistols were set back to 'contact'. "

[Onime No Kyo]

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Churchill wanted operations against Sumatra, Andaman Islands and Burma in 44 but the COS talked him out of it the RN was especially opposed to them and there were extensive debates on what was the role of the RN on the war against japan should be. (My source for most of this is the Alanbrooke diaries so as with all diaries it may be biased),

Politically the recapture of Burma/Malaya was important for post war imperial politicial reasons militarily it was viewed as marginal by COS better to use limited resources against targets on main line of advance.

I think discussions were had as to whether it should be a TF supporting CENTPAC the RN helping SWPAC or even a seperate commonwealth attack out of North Aus. (I think Brooke was in favour of supporting Mac as he was a great fan of MacArthur)

They finally settled on supporting Centpac not that I think King was particularily happy about it !!!!

Well, he did get his DEI raids in 44 and a landing in Burma was planned but scrapped because the Army had the situation pretty well handled. Churchill's problem was that at the time he started pushing for it, the local naval forces ammounted to about a dozen ships bigger than a DD. Thus they rightfully talked him out of it, or rather told him flat out that the idea was a no-go until and unless he committed more ships to the area.

Youre completely right that what he really wanted to do was get into the big pond to play where the USN was playing. He eventually got both the ops out of Australia and ops around the Home Islands. One interessting theory (again from The Forgotten Fleet) is that while King was vehemently opposed to RN presence in the big pool, Nimitz was glad to have them there as were many of the local USN commanders who both treated the RN with respect and provided logistical aaid that they were in no way authorised to provide.