WITP AE AAR Feb 09 Cathartes-JRCAR (Jap)

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I use CS TFs in WitP-1 with no problems, why shouldn't they work fine in AE?

CS works fine, and always has. Not Auto-Convoy, though.

But there are big limitations with current WITP CS.

A) Can only carry supplies or fuel.

B) Can only carry commodities in one direction. In the other direction the ships are empty.

C) No waypoints means they are unsuitable to route near enemy threated routes.


From what I recall being posted, A and C have been changed in AE. I think I remember that B is also changed. I hope so - in many cases it would be great (and a big lessening of micro-management) to be able to carry say, fuel in one direction and oil in the other, or supplies in one direction and resources in the other (or even fuel one way and resources the other for appropriate ships types).

If these three things are improved that will be a great help to players.

[Don Bowen]

A, B, C are all changed. D is the same.

[witpqs]

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

D is the same.

[Yamato hugger]

"De" same? [:D]

[Cathartes]

Here's a shot of another off-map base, Aden, on Dec. 7, 1941. Aden has a small shipyard repair facility at 20 repair pts.

[Dili]

Replacements works the same as it did in WitP basically. If you dont have supplies at the base to take the replacement it will be deducted from a base with an air HQ in it, assuming of course that an air or command HQ is within range to do this. And of course the magic "20,000 supply" is in there.

Upgrading is another kettle of fish. To upgrade, you need 20,000 supply AND a level 7 airfield - sort of.

If you have an air HQ at the base, the radius of the HQ adds to the effective airbase size. So a level 6 airbase with an air flot HQ (command range = 1) would make your size 7.

I know, that was my point it doesn't make sense all that complication. The planes are build they can go anywhere.

[Cap Mandrake]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

I might jump in here and point out that the effective "training system" is vastly different from stock.

In stock, in most of my games, the Allies didn't bother to "train" their pilots, since relatively speaking they already come in trained. On the other hand the Japanese (I've always played Japanese in my stock PBEM games) are always busy "training" their pilots. Typically this means "bombing" a dot you carefully didn't capture, some where deep in your own rear area, like near Java or the PI. In stock, I would "cycle" my air units to the front - use them there for a few days or weeks - then once they had been battered - I would send them to the rear - switch their planes to Nates or Oscars and "bomb" until I got to my release EXP level - usually 75 or 80 - and then switch to "front line" planes like Tony or Tojo and then return the unit to the front. A full cycle was several months - and typically only about a third - of say the IJA fighter force could be fighting "at the front" at a given moment.

Well, all this is different in AE. In AE, you can't much effectively bomb dots - especially if you are a fighter - because it will not help you one bit.

But, you can set you fighter unit to train on the "escort" mission which will help it be better at "air to air" combat. I've tried Allied fighter units up from EXP 30s to EXP 50s in a couple of months - and you can train up to about 70 via this method - on the skill in question. You can also train on "general skill" and affect all your skill ratings over time - but now we're talking much longer. Probably a year - to train up to 70 across the board.

So the "training" mission and related settings are key activities in AE and you will spend a LOT of time working with this. Roughly as much time as you Japanese players spent adjusting your units bombing the dots in stock.

I like the abolishment of the "Dot Hex College of the Air"

[Cathartes]

Here's the garrison at Aden, a small base force with some naval support and air support. An Allied player will never have to worry about off-map bases coming under any attack. They are mechanically off-limits to Japanese air/land/sea assault or recon of any type. Allied units can move by sea to and from this particular port. You can't transfer air units by air. There is no interaction of any units between on and off-map locations and transit zones (except allied movement).

[vettim89]

I know you guys have covered the whole concept of witdrawing units on a historical basic but this one puzzles me. The unit in question will be off the map for potentially just three months. I know you are trying to have as historically accurate an OOB as possible but this seems to be over the edge a bit. Is there something else going on here beyond what appears to be self evident?

[Mike Solli]

Does the (R) in West Coast(R) mean restricted?

[Grollub]

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

I might jump in here and point out that the effective "training system" is vastly different from stock.

In stock, in most of my games, the Allies didn't bother to "train" their pilots, since relatively speaking they already come in trained. On the other hand the Japanese (I've always played Japanese in my stock PBEM games) are always busy "training" their pilots. Typically this means "bombing" a dot you carefully didn't capture, some where deep in your own rear area, like near Java or the PI. In stock, I would "cycle" my air units to the front - use them there for a few days or weeks - then once they had been battered - I would send them to the rear - switch their planes to Nates or Oscars and "bomb" until I got to my release EXP level - usually 75 or 80 - and then switch to "front line" planes like Tony or Tojo and then return the unit to the front. A full cycle was several months - and typically only about a third - of say the IJA fighter force could be fighting "at the front" at a given moment.

Well, all this is different in AE. In AE, you can't much effectively bomb dots - especially if you are a fighter - because it will not help you one bit.

But, you can set you fighter unit to train on the "escort" mission which will help it be better at "air to air" combat. I've tried Allied fighter units up from EXP 30s to EXP 50s in a couple of months - and you can train up to about 70 via this method - on the skill in question. You can also train on "general skill" and affect all your skill ratings over time - but now we're talking much longer. Probably a year - to train up to 70 across the board.

So the "training" mission and related settings are key activities in AE and you will spend a LOT of time working with this. Roughly as much time as you Japanese players spent adjusting your units bombing the dots in stock.

Just a few questions to make sure I've understood this correctly.
1/ Depending on what type of training you choose, the air unit will eventually gain a "Major skill" as shown in the red box of the screen shot below?
2/ I saw on Jrcar's sreenshot of the Zero with drop tanks that it had the Major skills of 'Air, Strafing, Defensive'. To what kind of training do these kind of major skills correspond? How many major skills are there?

Cheers - Grollub
(any misytped words are the results of drool in the keyboard [;)])

[Cathartes]

I know you guys have covered the whole concept of witdrawing units on a historical basic but this one puzzles me. The unit in question will be off the map for potentially just three months. I know you are trying to have as historically accurate an OOB as possible but this seems to be over the edge a bit. Is there something else going on here beyond what appears to be self evident?

I'm not a an expert on the air OOB, but if you and/or your opponent would rather not bother with unit withdrawals, there is a way around it:



[:D]

[pad152]

ORIGINAL: Cathartes

I know you guys have covered the whole concept of witdrawing units on a historical basic but this one puzzles me. The unit in question will be off the map for potentially just three months. I know you are trying to have as historically accurate an OOB as possible but this seems to be over the edge a bit. Is there something else going on here beyond what appears to be self evident?

I'm not a an expert on the air OOB, but if you and/or your opponent would rather not bother with unit withdrawals, there is a way around it:



[:D]

Is there some sort of reporting telling you what is withdrawing and when?

When units return, do they show up at the same place where they were withdrawn from?

[Cathartes]

Just a few questions to make sure I've understood this correctly.
1/ Depending on what type of training you choose, the air unit will eventually gain a "Major skill" as shown in the red box of the screen shot below?
2/ I saw on Jrcar's sreenshot of the Zero with drop tanks that it had the Major skills of 'Air, Strafing, Defensive'. To what kind of training do these kind of major skills correspond? How many major skills are there?

Cheers - Grollub

1/ Yes. Training and real missions will develop those skills. If "None" appears I interpret it to mean that the pilots don't have any outstanding skills--and this is what I see when I look at all the pilots in the group. Usually a major skill requires a number of pilots that excel in it.
2/ Air could correspond to sweeps, strafing might be developed by ground attacks, and defensive might be due to escort/cap.

Does the (R) in West Coast(R) mean restricted?

Yes.

[jrcar]

Here is a screen shot of that Zero unit earlier, showing all the possible skills and what the pilots have in that skill.

The Skills are determined by code at the moment, based on on the base unit experiance and the TYPE of aircraft that the unit has at start (Ie a unit with a fighter class aircarft will have higher fighter type skills).

There is discussion at the moment on allowing these to be editable in the future ( a HUGE job in code and for the OOB designer...), won't be in the first release, and another discussion on tweaking how the skills are calculated (in particular in regards to search and ASW skills).

This is another of those complex problems that require complex soloutions e.g a fighter shouldn't have a high "search" skill compared to a trained Naval searcher... but has to have some skill 'cause fighters (like Buffaloes early war) WERE used to search out ships, and if they do overfly a TF they would see it... so what is high, what is high enough... etc.

This game, which we should be starting VERY soon has the latest tweaks in place.

Cheers

Rob

[jrcar]

I should note that experiance and skill are different. You can have pilots with high skills in an area (in particular after you have trained them) but still have low experiance.

Cheers

Rob

[vettim89]

ORIGINAL: jrcar

Here is a screen shot of that Zero unit earlier, showing all the possible skills and what the pilots have in that skill.

The Skills are determined by code at the moment, based on on the base unit experiance and the TYPE of aircraft that the unit has at start (Ie a unit with a fighter class aircarft will have higher fighter type skills).

There is discussion at the moment on allowing these to be editable in the future ( a HUGE job in code and for the OOB designer...), won't be in the first release, and another discussion on tweaking how the skills are calculated (in particular in regards to search and ASW skills).

This is another of those complex problems that require complex soloutions e.g a fighter shouldn't have a high "search" skill compared to a trained Naval searcher... but has to have some skill 'cause fighters (like Buffaloes early war) WERE used to search out ships, and if they do overfly a TF they would see it... so what is high, what is high enough... etc.

This game, which we should be starting VERY soon has the latest tweaks in place.

Cheers

Rob

Of course there should be some level of cross training. The B-17's out of Oahu for example were largely used for Naval Search early in the war. My only concern is how high is too high. By that I mean where does the line come where using aircraft for a non-design purpose becomes futile enough to deter all but the most desperate of players. For example, at Coral Sea, the fighter groups were depleted enough that SBD's were flown as anti-torpedo bomber CAP. That was a desperate situation and one would think the fighter skills would be low enough in the VS/VB sq to deter such use as a standard tactic. As an AFB, we all dread Helens on ASW patrol. Please make the Army bombers ASW exp low enough so that at least the JFB's would have to spend time training these units up before they could use them as such. Only play testing will tell.

[jrcar]

Yup, that is what has been done for this build, Air ASW "should be" less effective than stock. If it isn't then further tweaking will be undertaken

ORIGINAL: vettim89


Of course there should be some level of cross training. The B-17's out of Oahu for example were largely used for Naval Search early in the war. My only concern is how high is too high. By that I mean where does the line come where using aircraft for a non-design purpose becomes futile enough to deter all but the most desperate of players. For example, at Coral Sea, the fighter groups were depleted enough that SBD's were flown as anti-torpedo bomber CAP. That was a desperate situation and one would think the fighter skills would be low enough in the VS/VB sq to deter such use as a standard tactic. As an AFB, we all dread Helens on ASW patrol. Please make the Army bombers ASW exp low enough so that at least the JFB's would have to spend time training these units up before they could use them as such. Only play testing will tell.

[jrcar]

Ok well we have started!
Key info

2 day turns
PDU OFF
Realistic R&D (this means you can't convert R&D factories to production factories)
Non Historic first turn (Although no more invasions than what there is, just different targets)
Surpirse on.

The only "house rule" is if you move outside of a ground theatre (like Manuchia) then you have to pay PP's. Really only applies in Manchuria and India.

Cathartes can change airgroup orders, ships already in TF and forces in China.

[Kaletsch2007]

ORIGINAL: jrcar


The only "house rule" is if you move outside of a ground theatre (like Manuchia) then you have to pay PP's. Really only applies in Manchuria and India.

Cathartes can change airgroup orders, ships already in TF and forces in China.

What about CHINA ?