Zum Angriff: Dinglir (Axis) v HardLuck - HardLuck, U2 are welcome

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

I did over 400 attacks, OMG.

Did you get to 999 in the battles report? Remember ground bombings and recon count as separate battles there!

Sorry, I couldn't believe I did over 400 "ground attacks" in a single turn until I read it in Dinglir's post

[Nix77]

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Sorry, I couldn't believe I did over 400 "ground attacks" in a single turn until I read it in Dinglir's post

What's up with all the hasty attacks? Soaking attacks are a well known method to soften up the defender, but 31 hasty attacks against a single division? Sounds almost like your trying to game the system somehow.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Nix77

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain
Sorry, I couldn't believe I did over 400 "ground attacks" in a single turn until I read it in Dinglir's post

What's up with all the hasty attacks? Soaking attacks are a well known method to soften up the defender, but 31 hasty attacks against a single division? Sounds almost like your trying to game the system somehow.

I'm not smart enough to game the system. I only passed 1st grade, that is my story and I'm sticking with it. But I think that might have been an attack on a level 3 fortification. I wanted to see what would happen if I would continue. So continue I did & pretty much soak off attacks on any fort above level 2 should not be done at all from my observation. Therefore I wont be doing soak offs on level 3 forts any longer.

As for being well known method I can bet most people 1. never use them 2. don't know eactly what each does. In my games as Germany I had only two people use soak off attacks in any amount above the normal 1 or 2 attacks on a hex per turn. So that to me shows how well known it is imho.

[Dinglir]

Turn twentyeight.

[Dinglir]

Turn twentynine

[Dinglir]

Turn thirty.

[Telemecus]

I worry about the term "recon spamming" when it is meant as derogatory. Otherwise I would like to own it! [:D] There were significant parts of the war where large number of flights were flown historically specifically to wear down small numbers of pilots by keeping them awake 24 hours a day. Using numerous recon missions was specifically part of this in Malta and the north coast of France in 1942. So it is a historically valid tactic. You said you were worried that you had lost 8 recon aircraft doing this - in the EightMP game we found as many Soviet interceptors were being lost as our recon - which if only on aircraft terms seems to be a good exchange rate. Clearly though there is a danger you are just building up Soviet experience or morale if this is not combined with fighter sweeps or airbase bombing which leaves the Soviets in the local area overwhelmed. Did you abandon the tactic or follow it up? You can dual use the recon flights for other valuable information, and/or ensure the enemy interception occurs at the limits of their range while in the shortest range for you.

ORIGINAL: Dinglir
a few transport Air Groups unwilling to fly because they have more than half of their number in reserve

If only for this would it not be worth temporarily reducing your percentage required to fly to allow these missions to happen.

There was a much older post, which I cannot find anymore and would be very grateful if somebody could find and tell us, where they thoroughly tested ToE settings and the blizzard. By putting all other units which need arms points for replacements like artillery to 20% from as early as possible (turn 1?) all arms points were conserved to go into only infantry replacements. Doing this meant they ended the winter with a dozen unready infantry divisions rather than 40+. Surviving the blizzard - and having divisions ready for action - really is just about making as many infantry replacements as possible. By contrast in the good weather of 1941 many Axis artillery SUs barely fire a shot.

[Dinglir]

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
I worry about the term "recon spamming" when it is meant as derogatory. Otherwise I would like to own it! [:D] There were significant parts of the war where large number of flights were flown historically specifically to wear down small numbers of pilots by keeping them awake 24 hours a day. Using numerous recon missions was specifically part of this in Malta and the north coast of France in 1942. So it is a historically valid tactic. You said you were worried that you had lost 8 recon aircraft doing this - in the EightMP game we found as many Soviet interceptors were being lost as our recon - which if only on aircraft terms seems to be a good exchange rate. Clearly though there is a danger you are just building up Soviet experience or morale if this is not combined with fighter sweeps or airbase bombing which leaves the Soviets in the local area overwhelmed. Did you abandon the tactic or follow it up? You can dual use the recon flights for other valuable information, and/or ensure the enemy interception occurs at the limits of their range while in the shortest range for you.

I tested this during blizzard using Hs 126 recon aircraft. I found that the value of themethod by then was not particularly great, as the mileage flown soon prohibited me from making a lot of flights.

I do not do any airfield bombings any more, as I have found that once the airgroups targeted have low fatigue, the bombing is not really worth it. Anyways, in my current game, the Soviets are now up to some 4000+ non I-type figthters, so killing off a few seems to have no real value at all.

However, I think that the recon spam strategy may work a lot better if used in clear weather and with aircraft types better suited for dogfights than the Hs 126.

ORIGINAL: Telemecus

ORIGINAL: Dinglir
a few transport Air Groups unwilling to fly because they have more than half of their number in reserve

If only for this would it not be worth temporarily reducing your percentage required to fly to allow these missions to happen.

My main consideration was why so many Ju52's ended up as reserves. The answer seems to be that I simply had too many aircraft points on my airfields. The Ju52's take up a lot of air support elements.

ORIGINAL: Telemecus
There was a much older post, which I cannot find anymore and would be very grateful if somebody could find and tell us, where they thoroughly tested ToE settings and the blizzard. By putting all other units which need arms points for replacements like artillery to 20% from as early as possible (turn 1?) all arms points were conserved to go into only infantry replacements. Doing this meant they ended the winter with a dozen unready infantry divisions rather than 40+. Surviving the blizzard - and having divisions ready for action - really is just about making as many infantry replacements as possible. By contrast in the good weather of 1941 many Axis artillery SUs barely fire a shot.

At the beginnig of the current game I set the artillery support units to 80% TOE, and the result has been as described in the AAR. I would not advocate setting artillery units to 20% TOE, but rather to find a setting in between that would allow you to use your units while not overstretching your supply and production system. as a spoiler alert, I can mention that there will be more on this topic in the coming AAR's.

[Telemecus]

ORIGINAL: Dinglir
I tested this during blizzard using Hs 126 recon aircraft. I found that the value of themethod by then was not particularly great, as the mileage flown soon prohibited me from making a lot of flights.

I do not do any airfield bombings any more, as I have found that once the airgroups targeted have low fatigue, the bombing is not really worth it. Anyways, in my current game, the Soviets are now up to some 4000+ non I-type figthters, so killing off a few seems to have no real value at all.

However, I think that the recon spam strategy may work a lot better if used in clear weather and with aircraft types better suited for dogfights than the Hs 126.

If not doing airbase bombing or other things to wear down the fighter force you may be right this in isolation is not so useful.

Rather than targeting all non-I types you may be able to concentrate on only the longest range model - for instance the MiG3 at the beginning or some of the American/British interceptors now. Wearing only them down in places where the others cannot reach might still be viable? This would mean segmenting the Soviet air-force and defeating parts of it in detail.

I would recommend using the Fi156c most of all - it uses the least fuel and is probably your least useful recon aircraft otherwise due to its very short range. Ideally in recon airgroups that are withdrawing.

[Dinglir]

Turn thirtyone.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: Dinglir

Strategically, I am worried about the absence of the Soveit Guards formations, and I wonder where they will be sent. It looks as if the Soviets are switching more and more to prepare defenses in oart of the center, so I guess there will be a massive influx of Soviet formations in the south.

Here is where the Guards are for Inf & MtInf making up almost 600,000 of the Soviet Army. (Sorry had to "YELLOW" out the location for National security reasons)

[SparkleyTits]

My jaw just dropped HYLA....... Holy moly!!

How are you getting so many guards I thought there was a 10% limit in the current state of the war?
I imagine you should be somewhere around the 400 inf division mark at turn 31 without forming them yourself so wouldn't you need 510 inf divs to have that many?

Unless all forces irrespective of size count as a part of the total of the 10% when making new guard formations?

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

My jaw just dropped HYLA....... Holy moly!!

How are you getting so many guards I thought there was a 10% limit in the current state of the war?
I imagine you should be somewhere around the 400 inf division mark at turn 31 without forming them yourself so wouldn't you need 510 inf divs to have that many?

Unless all forces irrespective of size count as a part of the total of the 10% when making new guard formations?

There is a limit and broken down by category and year %. By the way there is no limit on Cavalry that can be guard, at least that was what it used to be and I haven't seen a change. Lets just put it this way, my TOE for the Army as a whole is close to 8 million ( you can find this number in the "Logistics Phase Event Log" under Army status by the way).

Even without the +1 I attack a great deal and almost always have 35+ Guard divisions going into the German Summer Offense. I'm not a big Corps Cavalry person and don't build them balls to the wall as others do(they actually suxxor on multiple fronts for me in what I want not to mention their high Arms cost). They do have their purpose but I normally never build many (I'm sure Dinglir was curious what I was doing). Yeah yeah yeah I hear all the soothsayers about how great Corps Cavalry is but that path I don't walk.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

My jaw just dropped HYLA....... Holy moly!!


I imagine you should be somewhere around the 400 inf division mark at turn 31 without forming them yourself so wouldn't you need 510 inf divs to have that many?

I have 597 Divisions and Brigades at current turn and that is after I disbanded some in the last few turns. This total does not include Mountain Division, tank brigades, and cavalry.

[SparkleyTits]

Righteo brigades and divisions both count for the same block of guard creation I assumed incorrectly they were counted seperately

You never stop learning with this game [:)]

Thanks man

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: SparkleyTits

Righteo brigades and divisions both count for the same block of guard creation I assumed incorrectly they were counted seperately

You never stop learning with this game [:)]

Thanks man

One of the book worms can definitely answer that for you but that is how I remember it. You are correct you never stop learning & I am still learning things too. Soviet is my weakest side to play too having concentrated on Germany from 2010 - 2016 Oh well took a step to the dark side.

[Nix77]

All the Guards have 95%+ ToE, hah. Dinglir is up for a harsh fight it seems

OOB of 8 million at this point of the war is really crazy.

[chaos45]

Its really not crazy if you look at the game situation-the German summer offensive was a failure and captured nor isolated any major soviet cities. Basically took much less ground than historical which also resulted in fewer soviet encirclement losses. All those extra soviet manpower points not take added up to a ton of extra manpower in 1941...all those little dot towns of manpower add up when your at 100:1 for manpower adds in 41.

Not to be a downer but the German player should just throw in the towel, as this game should lead to a soviet win 43-44.

This really is the biggest problem with this game---the entire game more or less resolves around how successful or unsuccessful the German 1941 offensive. If the Soviets do to well it very quickly goes towards a soviet win, if the Germans to well then its extremely hard for the soviets to stay in the game...is very little margin for error for a good game unless the 1941 assault at least makes historical gains.

[HardLuckYetAgain]

ORIGINAL: chaos45

Its really not crazy if you look at the game situation-the German summer offensive was a failure and captured nor isolated any major soviet cities. Basically took much less ground than historical which also resulted in fewer soviet encirclement losses. All those extra soviet manpower points not take added up to a ton of extra manpower in 1941...all those little dot towns of manpower add up when your at 100:1 for manpower adds in 41.

Not to be a downer but the German player should just throw in the towel, as this game should lead to a soviet win 43-44.

This really is the biggest problem with this game---the entire game more or less resolves around how successful or unsuccessful the German 1941 offensive. If the Soviets do to well it very quickly goes towards a soviet win, if the Germans to well then its extremely hard for the soviets to stay in the game...is very little margin for error for a good game unless the 1941 assault at least makes historical gains.

It has been up to Dinglir to continue or not continue, so far he has continued. I believe it is more of getting experience than anything at the moment that he carries on, but he will have to answer that. I have offered many times a discontinuation with no hard feelings what-so-ever on whatever decision he makes.

[Dinglir]

ORIGINAL: Nix77
OOB of 8 million at this point of the war is really crazy.

This is not what HardLuck was saying. The TOE of the Red Army is close to eight million, the actual OoB is at 6.3 million.