Europe map?

World in Flames is the computer version of Australian Design Group classic board game. World In Flames is a highly detailed game covering the both Europe and Pacific Theaters of Operations during World War II. If you want grand strategy this game is for you.

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marcuswatney
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RE: Europe map?

Post by marcuswatney »

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
I agree with most of the comments made by Marcus, but I also realize we can NOT implement any changes in this area (give the Maastrict hex to the Netherlands and maybe give an O-chit to Germany to compensate) without Harry's consent. We can't let MWIF be different from WIFFE here.

So if anything will change here then it will be because Harry accepts that this needs to be addressed, maybe after a discussion among the die-hard WIFFE fans on the official WIF forum. Our job in this forum is to simply draw this "problem" to Harry's attention so it has a chance to be considered. Then we will await his reply. Patrice has already sent an email to Harry so I propose we just wait to hear what Harry says. If MWIF will change the map in the Netherlands then it will be because WIFFE will change and make an official errata about this.

Of course Harry's approval is needed, and any change should bleed through to WIF:FE (which, with the continuing publication of the Annual, is already anything but a Final Edition). Perhaps the best approach is to focus initially on our concerns at the unrealistic strength of the French in 1940, which everyone seems to agree about, and propose as the solution an extra O-Chit for Germany, balanced by giving Maastricht to the Dutch ... thus simultaneously solving two inaccuracies.

This tweak could be offered as an optional rule until it gains widespread approval in the community, and programmed into MWiF as a toggled option at start. Steve: I trust programming a one-hex one-chit option would be no more complex than the disappearance of the Maginot Line after conquest?
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RE: Europe map?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
I agree with most of the comments made by Marcus, but I also realize we can NOT implement any changes in this area (give the Maastrict hex to the Netherlands and maybe give an O-chit to Germany to compensate) without Harry's consent. We can't let MWIF be different from WIFFE here.

So if anything will change here then it will be because Harry accepts that this needs to be addressed, maybe after a discussion among the die-hard WIFFE fans on the official WIF forum. Our job in this forum is to simply draw this "problem" to Harry's attention so it has a chance to be considered. Then we will await his reply. Patrice has already sent an email to Harry so I propose we just wait to hear what Harry says. If MWIF will change the map in the Netherlands then it will be because WIFFE will change and make an official errata about this.

Of course Harry's approval is needed, and any change should bleed through to WIF:FE (which, with the continuing publication of the Annual, is already anything but a Final Edition). Perhaps the best approach is to focus initially on our concerns at the unrealistic strength of the French in 1940, which everyone seems to agree about, and propose as the solution an extra O-Chit for Germany, balanced by giving Maastricht to the Dutch ... thus simultaneously solving two inaccuracies.

This tweak could be offered as an optional rule until it gains widespread approval in the community, and programmed into MWiF as a toggled option at start. Steve: I trust programming a one-hex one-chit option would be no more complex than the disappearance of the Maginot Line after conquest?
I am holding the optional rule count at 81 - that seems sufficient.
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BallyJ
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RE: Europe map?

Post by BallyJ »


I have lurked in this forum for too long. I feel I must make a comment regarding any changes to the map around the Dutch border. This will clearly change the way the start of the game plays. Please don't make this chance because of some perseved error in the WIFFE map. Having said that I must also say that I have been impressed by the work done so far and I am looking forward to the final release of the game. Well done and keep up the excellent work.
Regards John
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RE: Europe map?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: BallyJ


I have lurked in this forum for too long. I feel I must make a comment regarding any changes to the map around the Dutch border. This will clearly change the way the start of the game plays. Please don't make this chance because of some perseved error in the WIFFE map. Having said that I must also say that I have been impressed by the work done so far and I am looking forward to the final release of the game. Well done and keep up the excellent work.
Regards John
Welcome. Thanks.

Please continue to let me/us know your opinion - on issues large and small. The better I understand what each player thinks about different aspects of MWIF, the better in tune with the desires of players overall I can make the product.
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Orm
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RE: Europe map?

Post by Orm »

Please leave the Belgian / Netherlands / German borders as they are in WIFFE. [:-]

I have to vivid memories from older editions of WIF where Germany got stuck in Belgium and has trouble to even enter France. In several of those games the Germans had to rely on an Italian declaration of war and attack on the Italian/France border as well. In 2 games Germany (out of desperation) attacked Switzerland. France holding out untill USA declared war was not that uncommon. Personally I usually tried to grind through the maginot line early just for safety against getting stuck in Belgium.

The map change in this area made WIFFE alot more playable than earlier versions.

The suggestion to give Germany another offensive may leave a lucky German with 3 offensives against Russia. A possibility comes to mind that you defend agaist France and instead attack Russia 1940. With 3 offensives it looks like a very nice alternative that I do not like to see.
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marcuswatney
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RE: Europe map?

Post by marcuswatney »

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, making the border accurate by giving Maastricht back to the Netherlands does NOT make life harder for Germany in a conventional game where the Dutch are attacked a little before Belgium anyway.
 
Where there may be a change of balance is in those games where Germany chooses to leave the Netherlands neutral in order to give Japan a 'surprise' advantage against the Netherlands East Indies later.  Personally, I think the reward from that 'surprise' is too great at the moment, so a balancing penalty against Belgium is a reasonable price to pay.
 
Naturally, an extra O-Chit could be used somewhere completely different (and that sort of 'abuse' is certainly something that should be considered carefully), but given the many complaints in this forum that France is unreastically strong in 1940, Wosung's suggestion does seem to me to kill two birds with one stone, and in a very simple and satisfying way.
 
A few minutes ago, I was looking at some screen shots of Matrix's Guns of August, at a scale similar to MWiF, and it was revealing that the Maastricht border is properly portrayed there, causing no difficulty in that game (and Luxembourg is shown).  Depicting the 140km German border with Belgium/Luxembourg as more than 300km is too great a fudge for a self-respecting game like MWiF.
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Zorachus99
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RE: Europe map?

Post by Zorachus99 »

This topic has been chewed like a rag-doll in a dog's mouth.  Changing the european map should wait for MWIF v2, and I suggest we let Marcus playtest the proposed changes to determine the results. [:D]
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RE: Europe map?

Post by Astarix »

It should also be pointed out that Guns of August and MWiF are 2 completely unrelated game designs. I think it is safe to say that the WiFFE designers understood that the border with Belgium is inaccurate and that they made it this way for a reason. I have seen many games, both as the Axis and Allies prior to this version with the Germans bogged down inside Belgium and going nowhere until either the Russians or U.S. Dow'd.

In a game I played recently, the Germans still got bogged down inside Belgium, through no fault other than bad luck, until I dow'd as Russia. True, the German player didn't hit the Netherlands first, but he blew BOTH O-chits and still couldn't break the line in time to fend off the Soviets. Only, finally conquering Belgium, after the DoW.

The map scale has remained unchanged in Europe and dramatic changes in central areas of the map that have critical impact on game play, such as this border, should not be taken lightly. I think Steve and Patrice are very cognizant of this, and thus their reluctance to impose the change that a number of posters have been advocating. Anything that has a material change in game play, has the potential to impact or alienate a large portion of the WiF playing base, who have been looking forward for 13 years, to a product that as closely resembles WiF:FE as possible.

Making a German attack on the Netherlands essentially compulsory, dramatically changes the thinking and options of the Axis players. Keep in mind that every DoW the Axis make forces a U.S. Entry roll as well. Depending on Axis Strategic direction, they may have very valid reasons, other than a percieved benefit to the Japanese surprise, to wish avoiding a DoW on the Netherlands. Besides, the Japanese get the surprise regardless, as the Dutch are not active on the Pacific Map. They are only an aligned minor of the CW but not at war with Japan and therefore, still subject to full surprise. The real benefits the Axis achieve, is denying the CW the convoy points and a couple of CA's and avoiding another U.S. entry roll. It also, forces the CW and allies to plan and play the BoA more carefully, whereas if they Axis are forced to dow the Netherlands, the CW can essentially be guaranteed of the covoys and CA's.

Adding an O-chit to the German OOB, is not a very good solution either. As it stands now, the German player must consider very carefully how he expends his O-chits. With a 3rd O-chit, sufficient good whether in 1939, could virtually guarantee the conquest of France before the end of '39. Now only really achievable if using the No ZoC on surprise rule, not withstanding extremes of luck or player skill.

I'm for keeping the map as is in this section.

Jason
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RE: Europe map?

Post by wosung »

Playtesting it might be indeed a good idea.

OTOH one can easily argue, that WIFE is already a product of decades of playtesting...

And: Steve already stated the end of Dutch/Belgian/German border debate as far as programming MWIF is concerned.

The one thing I personally don't get in this debate is:

There's a vast, enjoyable collective effort ongoing to add more detail and realism to exactly all those parts of the map...

which are, in the end, only secondary for gameplay.

(I know this may sound eurocentric, but how many Wif games are decided on those parts of the map, representing, say, the Minneapolis area?)

In 100% of MWIF games the Dutch/Belgian/German border will be combat zone. What will be the percentage for Minneapolis, or other areas, which are "marginal" in this context?

I know, the answer probably will be: Just because central parts of the European map are so vital for game play, they should not be experimented with. Never change a running system.

But if the setting of the Battle of France 1940 is such a delicate thing to recreate (the setting, not the outcome!), one wonders, is abstracted/debatable/wrong mapping really the key to this broader issue?

Regards
wosung
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Zorachus99
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RE: Europe map?

Post by Zorachus99 »

The answer to a lot of your questions Wosung reside in two simple ideas:

1) The game designers wanted to make the flow of the game follow the historical events, but allow changes to the master plan be allowed.

2) Changing a map which has been extensively playtested, griped about, etc... is not within the scope of what Steve was commisioned to do. He was asked to translate the board game, not re-interpret what the original designer had done in regards to balancing either the map or the land units.

Simply conside the huge change in asia where there are 2.5x the number of hexes, but the same exact forcepools. We do not know how that is going to turn out. There are ideas, but we havent played the new map perhaps 100's of times to critique the issues properly in a thoughtful manner.

I fought the scale change in the Pacific tooth-and-nail, but eventually came to accept it as being more natural for many different reasons. My new Japanese - Chinese setups very much remind me of the game GO, where control is exerted on the front line only after you have most likely won.

BTW, Steve has already slated a few ideas for changing the European map in V2.
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RE: Europe map?

Post by wosung »

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
1) The game designers wanted to make the flow of the game follow the historical events, but allow changes to the master plan be allowed.

That's why I distinguished between recreating the setting of the Battle of France and recreating the Battle of France. And political geography is exactly neither historical event nor master plan.

And most posts against changing the Dutch border were based on the argument that such a change would make the Battle of France harder/impossible to win for the German player. Thus they were based on the strict historical course of the war themselves. Obviously the "right" amount of historical rigidity/openness of WIF is debatable. (Admittedly, the recreation of the Battle of France in 1940 as WW1 trench warfare in every 2nd game of WIF wouldn't be very much fun.)
2) Changing a map which has been extensively playtested, griped about, etc... is not within the scope of what Steve was commisioned to do. He was asked to translate the board game, not re-interpret what the original designer had done in regards to balancing either the map or the land units.
But, as you wrote, map changes are implemented all the time, even on the European map (esp. Scandinavia = less important parts of the map)

BTW, Steve has already slated a few ideas for changing the European map in V2.
There are plans for V2?

Regards

wosung
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RE: Europe map?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: wosung
ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
1) The game designers wanted to make the flow of the game follow the historical events, but allow changes to the master plan be allowed.

That's why I distinguished between recreating the setting of the Battle of France and recreating the Battle of France. And political geography is exactly neither historical event nor master plan.

And most posts against changing the Dutch border were based on the argument that such a change would make the Battle of France harder/impossible to win for the German player. Thus they were based on the strict historical course of the war themselves. Obviously the "right" amount of historical rigidity/openness of WIF is debatable. (Admittedly, the recreation of the Battle of France in 1940 as WW1 trench warfare in every 2nd game of WIF wouldn't be very much fun.)
2) Changing a map which has been extensively playtested, griped about, etc... is not within the scope of what Steve was commisioned to do. He was asked to translate the board game, not re-interpret what the original designer had done in regards to balancing either the map or the land units.
But, as you wrote, map changes are implemented all the time, even on the European map (esp. Scandinavia = less important parts of the map)

BTW, Steve has already slated a few ideas for changing the European map in V2.
There are plans for V2?

Regards

The changes to the map in Minnesota, for example, are because we are pretty much starting from nothing. The WIF FE mini-map of America uses a scale that is nowhere close to what MWIF uses (WIF FE European scale). Now CWIF had made a pass at filling in the terrain for the entire world using the European scale, but that was an enormous task and "perfection is an elusive goal".

Patrice, with the help of numerous other forum members has been making the terrain (hex terrain, hexside terrain, rivers, lakes, cities, rail lines and on and on) more accurate. If at all possible, I keep my involvement in the map minimal and work on other stuff. But the task of making the map more accurate is a truly worthy goal. There seems little sense in creating a world that is inaccurate, regardless of the practically zero chance of players of MWIF product 1 ever using most portions of the map. The rivers that run north out of Siberia come to mind.

Changes to Scandinavia were more or less required (and I made some important decisions there) because: (1) CWIF got it terribly wrong, and (2) WIF FE distorted that portion of the map, probably for game play purposes. Case in point was the location of Bergen.

For a long time we had a "no changes" policy for the European map, since it was designed by ADG using the "European Scale". Only in Scandinavia did we deviate from that policy. One other change came from Harry Rowland at ADG (the change in the Bessarabia border). And there might be a few other small corrections. I seem to remember that CWIF had made a change that we 'undid' in eastern Hungary.

About 2 weeks ago I asked Patrice to stir up this discussion, because we were evaluating whether to make the changes in Tunisia and NW Africa that had been proposed, and more or less agreed to in the forum as being more accurate. I wanted a thorough review of proposed changes to the European map - basically so I could have a tidy list.

The discussion has drifted rather far from my original modest objective.[8|]
=============
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RE: Europe map?

Post by michaelbaldur »

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RE: Europe map?

Post by Peter Stauffenberg »

I think it won't be necessary for Steve to make an optional rule for the Maastrict hex. MWIF should be exactly identical to WIFFE on the European map with the sole except of the European map border like Scandinavia and maybe even Tunisia. Either WIFFE is changed or MWIF will have to use the Belgian / German border as is.

Patrice has sent an email to Harry Rowland so he can comment on the necessity of changing the WIFFE map (not only the MWIF map) to correct this. If Harry says no then he probably has a reason for that and we will have to accept his objections to the change and not make any changes to the MWIF map. But if Harry says it's a mistake and should be fixed in the next official WIFFE errata then Steve can change the MWIF map for this hex to make it identical to the updated WIFFE. But we don't know yet what Harry will say so it's a moot point discussing this further.
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RE: Europe map?

Post by wosung »

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
The discussion has drifted rather far from my original modest objective.[8|]


"original modest objective"?

Says who?

The one man programming MWIF???!
[:D]


wosung
jcprom
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RE: Europe map?

Post by jcprom »

I agree with Borger Borgersen and Steve: changes to the European map should be submitted to Harry (otherwise, we’ll end up with 2 different maps).

Note: „easy” changes (with little or no impact on game play) could be submitted quickly (frex: as mentioned by Patrice, the island of Elba is Italian, not French) and some of them included in MWIF 1, when an elegant solution is found and Harry approves. More difficult decisions could be kept for MWIF 2 (if it ever comes to life, of course).

Side note (not applicable for MWIF, concerns only WIFFE, for the pleasure of discussion) : I would appreciate the proposed modification to the Dutch border. IMO, attacking only across the narrow Belgian border would have been sub-optimal for the Germans. It would have created huge bottlenecks on the Belgian roads. Besides, Allied forces would have been less scattered and in a better position to slow the advance of the PanzerGruppe.

IMO, the the general flow of the campaign in the West (i.e. the strength of the French Army) and the Maastricht hex are two distinct matters which should be discussed separately:

-If the designer wanted to make it feasible/desireable for the Germans to bypass/leave alone he Netherlands, he could for example prevent the Belgian army from setting up all its units on the the Liege/Ardennes sector. He could impose restrictions on set-up: such as at least 1 unit in each city. Or change the sequence of DoWs: first declare war on 1st minor, set up 1st minor’s units, then declare war on 2nd minor and so on (Belgians would set up without knowing if germany also attacks the Dutch). Or make minor units appear constantly on-map. Or…

-If the designer wanted to shorten the French campaign, he could for example slightly reduce the effect of smaller cities (Liege won’t slow the panzers as well as Paris). He could increase or extend the effects of surprise (some effects would last several impulses…). Or…

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RE: Europe map?

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: jcprom
-If the designer wanted to shorten the French campaign, he could for example slightly reduce the effect of smaller cities (Liege won’t slow the panzers as well as Paris). He could increase or extend the effects of surprise (some effects would last several impulses…). Or…
This already exist in WiF FE, with the penalty for th enumber of factory stacks that the city have.
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RE: Europe map?

Post by Froonp »

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
Patrice has sent an email to Harry Rowland so he can comment on the necessity of changing the WIFFE map (not only the MWIF map) to correct this. If Harry says no then he probably has a reason for that and we will have to accept his objections to the change and not make any changes to the MWIF map. But if Harry says it's a mistake and should be fixed in the next official WIFFE errata then Steve can change the MWIF map for this hex to make it identical to the updated WIFFE. But we don't know yet what Harry will say so it's a moot point discussing this further.
No answer yet from Harry, and without answer, no change.

This said, changing this hex from German to Dutch is VERY easy:
- 1 number to change in a file from 79 (Germany) to 78 (The Netherlands)
- 2 digits to exchange to shift the Resource to the adjacent hex in another file.

I'll explain anyone who wants to try that how he can do that in the game. Be warned though that games saved with this modified game may not load in the non modified game. But you can also save the original files to go back to the normal game.
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RE: Europe map?

Post by Shannon V. OKeets »

ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
Patrice has sent an email to Harry Rowland so he can comment on the necessity of changing the WIFFE map (not only the MWIF map) to correct this. If Harry says no then he probably has a reason for that and we will have to accept his objections to the change and not make any changes to the MWIF map. But if Harry says it's a mistake and should be fixed in the next official WIFFE errata then Steve can change the MWIF map for this hex to make it identical to the updated WIFFE. But we don't know yet what Harry will say so it's a moot point discussing this further.
No answer yet from Harry, and without answer, no change.

This said, changing this hex from German to Dutch is VERY easy:
- 1 number to change in a file from 79 (Germany) to 78 (The Netherlands)
- 2 digits to exchange to shift the Resource to the adjacent hex in another file.

I'll explain anyone who wants to try that how he can do that in the game. Be warned though that games saved with this modified game may not load in the non modified game. But you can also save the original files to go back to the normal game.
Yes.

The program is rather insensitive to changing who controls any particular hex. For instance, the later scenarios start with larges swathes of the USSR controlled by Germany. There is a separate data file for resetting who controls which hexes on the map each year. You could even 'give' Germany a few select hexes in Iowa if you so desired.

The same is true for cities, factories, ports, resources, and so forth.

Of course, I have spent almost zero effort on making these things easy to do (i.e., no program interface) but the data files are intentionally all comma separated values (CSV) and can be edited using Micorsoft's Notebook if you so desired.

On the downside are 2 items:
1 - changing any of the data files while in the middle of a game is verboten.
2 - the AI Opponent may not be able to cope, since it assumes certain aspects of the map are unchanged from how it was shipped in the product release.
Steve

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jcprom
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RE: Europe map?

Post by jcprom »

On the downside are 2 items:
1 - changing any of the data files while in the middle of a game is verboten.
2 - the AI Opponent may not be able to cope, since it assumes certain aspects of the map are unchanged from how it was shipped in the product release.

I gather it's possible to add or remove 1 or 2 units from at start forces ? (for play-balance purposes using a particular set of options).
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