2by3 Russian Front Game?
Moderator: maddog986
RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
Judging solely by forum traffic, I'd say that's flat out wrong. Even considering how large a percentage of users never visit the Matrix forums, the WitP forum is light years ahead of all the others in terms of activity.
We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.
RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
ORIGINAL: Terminus
Judging solely by forum traffic, I'd say that's flat out wrong. Even considering how large a percentage of users never visit the Matrix forums, the WitP forum is light years ahead of all the others in terms of activity.
I agree with you 100%.
Regards,
Grell
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Peter Fisla
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RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
WitP is a great playable monster, I love the level of detail in WitP; especially the air war layer. I'm looking for similar level of detail for the Eastern Front - give me a playable monster ...something like GRD Europa Fire in the East/Schorched Earth and I will hapily pay $200 for it! 
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Joel Billings
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RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
Our Russian front game is no longer on hold. In fact, Gary has been very actively working on it for the past 6-8 months. He has been putting in some time on War Between the States, but that game is mostly waiting on Keith to finish the last few items on his to do list (and Keith has been making good progress the past month). Keith has even spent a little time helping Gary with a few GUI issues with the new Russia game. Since last summer Gary has probably spent 50-60% of his time on Russian Front. The big breakthrough came in late January when Gary finally figured out Keith's GUI engine enough to be able to get the game up and playable. The alpha map and data has been around for years, and starting late last summer Gary started recoding most of the combat and supply system which was started in 2001. By January he was ready to put in a basic GUI but was having problems. Thanks to some work he was doing on WBTS, he finally figured out how to get Keith's engine to do some things he needed to do. In February, he started adding a basic GUI so the game can be played. The GUI will have a long way to go, but at least he can start testing things. He's got the AI now playing against itself and is working through the opening moves.
The game is 10 miles per hex (about 190 by 140 hexes). He said in his opening tests it takes the AI nearly 15 minutes to complete the first German turn. It's not that things are particularly slow, it's just that at 10 miles per hex and division scale, the first turn of Barbarossa is a massive undertaking. We were kidding yesterday that the first 2 weeks of the war could be its own scenario that could take a few hours to play (how far can you get in 2 weeks). This will probably compare to the first turn of War in the Pacific for turn length, but we think the game system will give it a higher "fun factor" (and addictive quality) as you make your move.
The game is turn based with an integrated movement and combat phase. That means you move units, conduct attacks (hasty and normal), and then continue to move additional units and conduct additional attacks (including airstrikes). We think production will probably happen during this phase as well, although there is a chance it will be broken out into a unique production phase. When one player is done with their turn, the other player gets to make their moves/attacks/production. The only things that are "automatic/simultaneous" are air interdiction missions that can hit moving units, and automatic CAP that flies to meet enemy airstrikes. I think some kinds of air missions also fly automatically during your turn, while others are plotted. The land game is totally different than War in the Pacific. The air game has some similarities to WitP, but is also quite a bit different. The game uses the "engine" code from A World Divided, but a player would never know that as this only involves under the hood issues and not what the player sees in the game. I think some of the air code is similar to War in the Pacific, but it's probably been changed so much that you wouldn't recognize it.
We still have a long way to go as this game is massive, and the testing time will be long. Since it is weekly turns, we're looking at 200 turns instead of the over 1000 in WitP. This should speed testing, although we're still not sure how long a normal turn will take for players or the AI (once the front is stable). The guts of the simulation doesn't scare me as much as the GUI. Gary's been doing War in Russia games for 25 years now and he knows how to make a good simulation. It will take time to balance but we'll get that right with testing. The hard work will be in getting the interface done in a way that makes it as easy for players to play as possible. Since doing advanced GUI items will involve Keith, this part of the job will probably drag on longer than the work on the underlying code. So we may be doing our initial testing with a GUI that will change dramatically during development. That said, we're hoping that we can start initial testing within a few months. The process usually goes like this:
1) Gary gets the game up and running enough so he can test basic items (basic map, data, and interface).
2) Gary gets a basic AI into the game so he can run AI vs AI tests of his various systems (combat, movement, supply).
3) I get involved testing the basic interface and design.
4) The game gets to where a player can do all of the things that a player needs to be able to do (although with rudimentary GUI), Gary starts improving the AI based on my input.
5) At this point we often will try to have a few people testing the game (me, our data editor, and a few core testers). Work begins on improving the interface, refining the design and improving the AI. At this point the game is usually very difficult to play given the rudimentary interface and number of bugs.
6) We add alpha testers when the game is more stable and a bit easier to play.
7) Testing and development continue, often for many months (or years) until we reach beta, at which point we add more testers and move to finish development.
We're now far along on step 2 and about to reach step 3. I'm looking forward to finishing the last work on WBTS so I can focus on Russian Front. I can't say when we'll get to step 5 and are looking for our first testers, but things are looking much better now than they did even two months ago.
The game is 10 miles per hex (about 190 by 140 hexes). He said in his opening tests it takes the AI nearly 15 minutes to complete the first German turn. It's not that things are particularly slow, it's just that at 10 miles per hex and division scale, the first turn of Barbarossa is a massive undertaking. We were kidding yesterday that the first 2 weeks of the war could be its own scenario that could take a few hours to play (how far can you get in 2 weeks). This will probably compare to the first turn of War in the Pacific for turn length, but we think the game system will give it a higher "fun factor" (and addictive quality) as you make your move.
The game is turn based with an integrated movement and combat phase. That means you move units, conduct attacks (hasty and normal), and then continue to move additional units and conduct additional attacks (including airstrikes). We think production will probably happen during this phase as well, although there is a chance it will be broken out into a unique production phase. When one player is done with their turn, the other player gets to make their moves/attacks/production. The only things that are "automatic/simultaneous" are air interdiction missions that can hit moving units, and automatic CAP that flies to meet enemy airstrikes. I think some kinds of air missions also fly automatically during your turn, while others are plotted. The land game is totally different than War in the Pacific. The air game has some similarities to WitP, but is also quite a bit different. The game uses the "engine" code from A World Divided, but a player would never know that as this only involves under the hood issues and not what the player sees in the game. I think some of the air code is similar to War in the Pacific, but it's probably been changed so much that you wouldn't recognize it.
We still have a long way to go as this game is massive, and the testing time will be long. Since it is weekly turns, we're looking at 200 turns instead of the over 1000 in WitP. This should speed testing, although we're still not sure how long a normal turn will take for players or the AI (once the front is stable). The guts of the simulation doesn't scare me as much as the GUI. Gary's been doing War in Russia games for 25 years now and he knows how to make a good simulation. It will take time to balance but we'll get that right with testing. The hard work will be in getting the interface done in a way that makes it as easy for players to play as possible. Since doing advanced GUI items will involve Keith, this part of the job will probably drag on longer than the work on the underlying code. So we may be doing our initial testing with a GUI that will change dramatically during development. That said, we're hoping that we can start initial testing within a few months. The process usually goes like this:
1) Gary gets the game up and running enough so he can test basic items (basic map, data, and interface).
2) Gary gets a basic AI into the game so he can run AI vs AI tests of his various systems (combat, movement, supply).
3) I get involved testing the basic interface and design.
4) The game gets to where a player can do all of the things that a player needs to be able to do (although with rudimentary GUI), Gary starts improving the AI based on my input.
5) At this point we often will try to have a few people testing the game (me, our data editor, and a few core testers). Work begins on improving the interface, refining the design and improving the AI. At this point the game is usually very difficult to play given the rudimentary interface and number of bugs.
6) We add alpha testers when the game is more stable and a bit easier to play.
7) Testing and development continue, often for many months (or years) until we reach beta, at which point we add more testers and move to finish development.
We're now far along on step 2 and about to reach step 3. I'm looking forward to finishing the last work on WBTS so I can focus on Russian Front. I can't say when we'll get to step 5 and are looking for our first testers, but things are looking much better now than they did even two months ago.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
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Joel Billings
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RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
ORIGINAL: Jonny
Does anyone know the status? I read it's on hold but come on....we need a serious Russian Front game like WiTP.
Thanks,
Jon
This will be a serious, detailed, involved game for sure. Like WitP in that respect, but very unlike WitP in the actual feel of gameplay.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
Hi Joel,
I can't believe what I'm reading, I thought it was a myth! Wow, can't wait.[X(]
Regards,
Grell
I can't believe what I'm reading, I thought it was a myth! Wow, can't wait.[X(]
Regards,
Grell
RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
Direct Q to Joel. Is there any chance for a "War in the Mediterranean" in the future?
Otherwise I like what I am reading. Sounds like the optimal EF game.
Otherwise I like what I am reading. Sounds like the optimal EF game.
Deus Vult.
RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
Hi Joel!
May I ask,
1. what about divisions/corps "subunits"? Are they organized like the ones in WIR or WITP?
2. will it be possible to merge divs into corps/army counters like in WIR? I liked that approach, esp. with high unit density. Better oversight, less mouse clicks. The only drawback in WIR was that you immobilized a corps/army for a turn, when you transfered a new div to it. And: the special supply was a bit annoying, because of the many mouse clicks it involved.
Thanks for designing it with a 1 week turn /division scale!!
I like that approach very since many years. Playing a WIR game even right now. Thinking, PW is even more punky than WITP! Because it's faster to play.
Oh, and when will you guys movin' to create a WW2, 1 week turns, div scale global game??? Now that would be it!
Regards
May I ask,
1. what about divisions/corps "subunits"? Are they organized like the ones in WIR or WITP?
2. will it be possible to merge divs into corps/army counters like in WIR? I liked that approach, esp. with high unit density. Better oversight, less mouse clicks. The only drawback in WIR was that you immobilized a corps/army for a turn, when you transfered a new div to it. And: the special supply was a bit annoying, because of the many mouse clicks it involved.
Thanks for designing it with a 1 week turn /division scale!!
I like that approach very since many years. Playing a WIR game even right now. Thinking, PW is even more punky than WITP! Because it's faster to play.
Oh, and when will you guys movin' to create a WW2, 1 week turns, div scale global game??? Now that would be it!
Regards
wosung
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Joel Billings
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- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
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RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
ORIGINAL: marcusm
Direct Q to Joel. Is there any chance for a "War in the Mediterranean" in the future?
Otherwise I like what I am reading. Sounds like the optimal EF game.
For us, it's one step at a time. Once we do this game we hope to use the system for other WWII topics. Naval is not a big part of this game. I'm not sure how we would deal with the naval aspects of the Med using this system, but we do hope to get to that point down the road.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
Glad to here the Russian Front game is live and well!
Have you considered 3 day turns? Heck that's only 600 turns nothing for us WITP players, HPS's Panzer Campaigns Sicily is 350 turns [:D]
Any naval component to the game?
Will there be an editor?
Thanks
Have you considered 3 day turns? Heck that's only 600 turns nothing for us WITP players, HPS's Panzer Campaigns Sicily is 350 turns [:D]
Any naval component to the game?
Will there be an editor?
Thanks
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Joel Billings
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- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 8:00 am
- Location: Santa Rosa, CA
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RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
ORIGINAL: wosung
Hi Joel!
May I ask,
1. what about divisions/corps "subunits"? Are they organized like the ones in WIR or WITP?
For Germans, there are corps and army HQ units on the board (and airfield units where air units are located). Divisions, the main unit for movement are assigned to a corps. Smaller units like special tank battalions, AA, engineers, etc. are kept with the corps HQ as corps assets, but loaned out to the corps' divisions for combat based on various leader checks (if the HQ is close enough). So chain of command is important, and keeping your corps (and armies) together is important. Gary is also toying with the idea that a division stacked with the corps HQ can be used as a reserve that may be used to automatically try to counter an enemy attack on another unit in the corps, again based on various checks.
2. will it be possible to merge divs into corps/army counters like in WIR? I liked that approach, esp. with high unit density. Better oversight, less mouse clicks. The only drawback in WIR was that you immobilized a corps/army for a turn, when you transfered a new div to it. And: the special supply was a bit annoying, because of the many mouse clicks it involved.
You cannot create corps/army counters, and at 10 miles per hex wouldn't want to. The Russians however will have an ability to use their mech brigades and infantry divisions to build corps units (tank and mech corps are just oversized divisions, while infantry corps will allow the numerous Russian infantry divisions to combine into larger formations). Like Gary's earlier games, the Russian organization will change as it did historically, and will have HQ units of the appropriate designations that will work in ways similar to the German Corps/Army structure.
Thanks for designing it with a 1 week turn /division scale!!
I like that approach very since many years. Playing a WIR game even right now. Thinking, PW is even more punky than WITP! Because it's faster to play.
Our design goal is to blend the ease of play aspects of the old SPI boardgame War in the East with Gary's ability to add detail. At 10 miles per hex though, it's even more detailed than WitE which was 20 miles IIRC. I remember waiting anxiously in high school to get my pre-ordered copy of the original War in the East, and the summer of 1974 I spent playing it solitaire. A year later I actually found 3 other people to play a team game that was set up on my uncle's ping pong table in his garage. I loved that game, and if ours can bring back half the fun I had with WitE, I'll be very happy. I also tried Drang Nach Osten in the seventies, but never was able to invest the time to get very far with it.
Oh, and when will you guys movin' to create a WW2, 1 week turns, div scale global game??? Now that would be it!
The whole war will be tough. Europe might be doable someday, if we live long enough.
Regards
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
Thank you very much for the extensive answers!
All this sounds very good (esp. the Europe someday part).
Its really exiting to hear more details about this long anticipated project.
May I further ask,
1. Are the other European fronts abstracted like in WIR, to give the german players strategic options?
2. Will there be historical AI behavior, perhaps as AI special mode? Like: Russian counter attacks in Summer 41, regardless of the danger of pockets? German overambitions like simultan Stalingrad & Caucasus? Hitler's no retreat orders?
IRL those arguably dumb strategic decisions very much shaped the nature of the conflict.
In WIR as the Russian I couldn't get the German AI to move towards the Caucasus into my trap. Thus I found the 1942 campaign harder to win for the Russian side than the 1941 campaign.
Regards
All this sounds very good (esp. the Europe someday part).
Its really exiting to hear more details about this long anticipated project.
May I further ask,
1. Are the other European fronts abstracted like in WIR, to give the german players strategic options?
2. Will there be historical AI behavior, perhaps as AI special mode? Like: Russian counter attacks in Summer 41, regardless of the danger of pockets? German overambitions like simultan Stalingrad & Caucasus? Hitler's no retreat orders?
IRL those arguably dumb strategic decisions very much shaped the nature of the conflict.
In WIR as the Russian I couldn't get the German AI to move towards the Caucasus into my trap. Thus I found the 1942 campaign harder to win for the Russian side than the 1941 campaign.
Regards
wosung
RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
As a founder of SSI you are my personal hero Joel so
everything you are involved in sounds good to me.
everything you are involved in sounds good to me
. Deus Vult.
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Joel Billings
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RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
I can't remember how Gary planned on dealing with other theaters. I think the German player will have to react like in War in Russia.
Not sure about AI behavior options, or optional Hitler stand fast rules.
It's been 7 years since I was involved in detailed discussions on entire game, and during the past 6 months Gary hasn't brought up these particular items for discussion. I'll have a better sense when I get more involved now that we're getting close to a playable game.
Not sure about AI behavior options, or optional Hitler stand fast rules.
It's been 7 years since I was involved in detailed discussions on entire game, and during the past 6 months Gary hasn't brought up these particular items for discussion. I'll have a better sense when I get more involved now that we're getting close to a playable game.
All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard
-- Soren Kierkegaard
RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
Happy [:)] happy [:)] happy [:)][:)][:)]
"Life's a b***h, then you die."
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Peter Fisla
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- Location: Canada
RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
Outstanding!!!!!!! This is probably the best PC wargaming news of 2008 - for me anyway.
Thank You Joel, for such a detailed report on the status of the Project...very much appreciated and ejoyed reading every single sentence.
I would be very much happy to help out with testing...I have testing experience all the way from Close Combat days from Atomic. I'm also software engineer (11+ years of C++) as well as wargame designer developer as hobby...so I know very well guys what you are going through!
Peter
PS: I only have 1 Eastern Front operational wargame in game collection: GRD Fire in the East/Schorched Earth. I actually ported the basic rules into computer engine (Visual C++ and MFC)...just never managed to come up a decent idea for the AI. How do you write AI for 3000 units game ? Nuts! So I only have human vs human game play implemented so far. I can provide screen shot of my game engine if anyone is interested.
Thank You Joel, for such a detailed report on the status of the Project...very much appreciated and ejoyed reading every single sentence.
I would be very much happy to help out with testing...I have testing experience all the way from Close Combat days from Atomic. I'm also software engineer (11+ years of C++) as well as wargame designer developer as hobby...so I know very well guys what you are going through!
Peter
PS: I only have 1 Eastern Front operational wargame in game collection: GRD Fire in the East/Schorched Earth. I actually ported the basic rules into computer engine (Visual C++ and MFC)...just never managed to come up a decent idea for the AI. How do you write AI for 3000 units game ? Nuts! So I only have human vs human game play implemented so far. I can provide screen shot of my game engine if anyone is interested.
RE: 2by3 Russian Front Game?
And what about Intelligence? FoW? Do you plan to implement a simple Intelligence model like in PW? (In PW the US player gets various infos by choice). Thinking of Kursk...or russian maskirovkas (sp?), deceptions.
I like the idea of reserve units, eligible for bolstering up the defenses/attacks. Even cooler would be a counter strike option, or (tactical) Rules of engagement, like determining if the tanks are deployed in the 1st wave of attack or not. Thinking of the Model/Manstein approaches at Kursk...
Regards
I like the idea of reserve units, eligible for bolstering up the defenses/attacks. Even cooler would be a counter strike option, or (tactical) Rules of engagement, like determining if the tanks are deployed in the 1st wave of attack or not. Thinking of the Model/Manstein approaches at Kursk...
Regards
wosung