You will love this game

Crocky · Post by **Crocky** » Mon Apr 29, 2002 8:32 am

The big point in this game was the carrier battle 2 weeks ago which Rick came out on top of this has affected my ability to attack his operations around Lunga.

So I had a decision do we fight for Lunga or let him take itthe decision was made that the units there mainly coastal defence and AA units (the engineer units were evacuated the day before Lunga fell) could stand and fight .....now Rick old buddy you have to supply this out post of yours as well as New Guinea and I know you have lost a lot of transports so.....let the battle of the supply lines begin...

Oh and yes you can perform naval evacuations with fast transports ideally CLs and DDs another great feature of this game.

Point Luck · Post by **Point Luck** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:02 am

Ok folks how did you get your hands the game (uv). I,ve been reading and waiting and reading and waiting for this game for a better part of a year. I'm burned out on SPWaW and FF etc,etc. I need a new monkey on my back. I need my fix. Someone help.

Philbill1 · Post by **Philbill1** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:15 am

These guys are part of the beta test team, thats how they are able to play the game, however UV has gone gold so it should be available sometime in the first half of May.

Phil

Point Luck · Post by **Point Luck** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:24 am

Thanks I thought they where a beta team. I've been playing these games way too long. When I find a game that has this potential I start climbing the walls.

MalleusDei · Post by **MalleusDei** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 4:00 am

What's up with these capital ships being hit by mines? That RARELY happened in 1942-1943.

Sounds ahistorical to me.

siRkid · Post by **siRkid** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 4:40 am

Originally posted by MalleusDei
What's up with these capital ships being hit by mines? That RARELY happened in 1942-1943.

Sounds ahistorical to me.

Actually, I have not had any capital ships hit a mine. Mostly transports, DD and some subs. I think one reason they have become such a major factor is my fault. I squandered away all my mine sweepers. Now I have to do it the army way, close my eyes and pray, just kidding.

Crocky · Post by **Crocky** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 5:55 am

Rick may not have had any capital ships hit by mines but the Kaga while taking a shortcut hit two putting her in dry dock for 6 months..

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 6:58 am

Greetings, As far as damaged or sunk ships I can find no reference to any IJN ship larger then a DD ever sunk or damaged by a mine. Mines did sink quite a few sweepers and DD/DE mercents and subs. But no CL or larger. This could merely reflect the IJN did not send these ships places without sweeping the area first. In the Pacific 1 US merchent was sunk by mines in 42, another in 44. a half dozen or so were damaged (the last ship sunk by mines laid during WW2 occured in 1947 the last ship damaged by mines from WW2 was in 1950) In the ETO mines caused much more damage to warships and merchants then in the Pacific.
Not suprising really when you look at a map. The Germans had the entire war to mine the English channel while in the Pacific only the Solomon's area is one where comparable restricted waters exist for the Japanese. (US sub laid mines took a constant toll on the Japanese merchants around Japan)
All US merchants sunk or damaged in WW2 by mines occured in South Pacific (Espirtu Santo and New Cal). (OK there was 1 ship damaged in Indian Ocean)
They are most effective at limiting where the enemy will send his ships. (The book 'Harms Way' has a Yamato class BB and a Mogami class CA both hit mines before the big battle) (It also has PT boats sink a Mogami and 2 DD's losing only 7 PT boats:eek: )
Submarines on both sides hit mines almost as often as minesweepers. Often the mines they hit were their own sides.
Minesweepers of course hit mines more often then anyother type ship because they go into more minefields.
The mine is most often employed around friendly ports just to kept enemy submarines away. They really are used to close areas not to cause suprise damage. Around a friendly port you place minefields everywhere but a path in or out allowing more effective ASW patrols. Still if the players do not sweep the areas where mines are deployed and travel those areas the results will be different.

Crocky · Post by **Crocky** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 3:56 pm

Quick update

Rick tried to slip a TF made up of the Wasp and support vessels into the supply lines between Truk and Rabual..lucky I spotted him and he was sent packing with the Wasp taking a torpedo and a 250kg bomb

Now that hes taking Lunga his sights are on the Russel Islands a TF land some Marines? but was driven off before it could complete landing troops and supplies

An American Tf succeeded in bombarding Shortland and the tried to repeat the dose with a TF including the North Carolina

unfortunately they were spotted by LBA and the NC took a torpedo and 2 bombs (back to Pearl maybe)

Hes also eyeing up my forces I land in Finschafen should be interesting

rhohltjr · Post by **rhohltjr** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 4:59 pm

Originally posted by Mogami

(The book 'Harms Way' has a Yamato class BB and a Mogami class CA both hit mines before the big battle) (It also has PT boats sink a Mogami and 2 DD's losing only 7 PT boats:eek: )

Wow. Something in common with Mogami!!

I read that book too. Movie shows only old CA 'Swayback' and 3 destroyers against the monster fleet. The book also had 3 escort carriers which did not make the movie, except at the end when Adm. Torry says '...seven ships sacrificed'. The book was better than the movie, but that is not unusual. Sorry John Wayne.

ftwarrior · Post by **ftwarrior** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 5:26 pm

They are most effective at limiting where the enemy will send his ships.

They are, in effect, just friction since everyone knows where they might be placed.

MalleusDei · Post by **MalleusDei** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 6:42 pm

Well, I talked to my uncle last night, who was USN in the South Pacific in 1942-1943. He says mines were "a total non-factor."

And I can't find any references to any signifcant ship being hit by a mine in the South Paciific in 1942-1943. Can anyone else?

This sounds bogus to me.

ratster · Post by **ratster** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 7:13 pm

The Japanese took quite a pounding from mines, during the war they lost 600,000 tons of shipping to mines alone(mostly merchant/transport stuff, small vessels). An allied CL was sunk by mines (3), don't recall the name (British or Australian).

Mines are certainly capable of sinking any ship, given enough mines, and reckless ship captains.

Preacher · Post by **Preacher** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 7:33 pm

Seems to me that a historical handling of minesweepers and mine-avoidance techniques will produce historical results whereas an ahistorical handling of same will produce ahistorical results. Isn't this what we want the game to do?

Preacher

mogami · Post by **mogami** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 9:19 pm

Thats correct Preacher. If the players ignore mines and just go into mine fields we will see ahistorical results. If they do their mine sweeping and keep their TF's out of minefields we will see more historical results.

MalleusDei · Post by **MalleusDei** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 10:41 pm

Okay, I did the research. The total number of U.S. warships lost in the Pacific from 1942 to 1943 to Japanese mines is ZERO, I repeat zero.

That's right. Not one.

Now, the USS Tucker, DD-374 was indeed sunk by a mine in the South Pacific on 4 August 1942. But it was not a Japanese mine, it was an AMERICAN mine; the story is told on

http://www.destroyers.org/nl-histories/dd374-nl.htm

as:

"On August 1, 1942, DD-374 was assigned the task of escorting the freighter SS NIRA LUCKENBACK to Espiritu Santo in the New Hebrides. Three days later, after a relatively uneventful trip, TUCKER and her charge were approaching the anchorage in the late evening when an enormous explosion rocked the destroyer. A minefield laid the day before by American forces had not been reported to TUCKER or the freighter. The destroyer’s back was broken. Attempts by USS BREESE (DMS-18) and the small patrol craft UP-346 to tow the stricken destroyer into shallow water almost succeeded. TUCKER was beyond help, however, DD-374 jack-knifed and sank in the early morning hours of August 4, 1942. Three men had been killed by the American mine and three more were listed as missing."

Since mines had no effect on the war in the South Pacific 1942-1943, this ahistorical mines nonsense really needs to be removed from the game.

Mines were NOT a factor in 1942-1943 in the South Pacific.

madflava13 · Post by **madflava13** » Tue Apr 30, 2002 11:06 pm

I've been waiting for a game that models mine warfare since the early days of Harpoon and others...
Even though they may not have had a huge effect in WW2, they were still there historically, and I believe they should remain in the game. I am really looking forward to sending Argonaut to mine the exits from Rabaul...

Preacher · Post by **Preacher** » Wed May 01, 2002 12:15 am

Originally posted by MalleusDei
Mines were NOT a factor in 1942-1943 in the South Pacific.

Noted. However, before writing mines out of the code, we need to answer this question: WHY were mines not a factor in the South Pacific from '42-'43? Was it because they didn't exist? No. It is because the US took its minesweeping duties very seriously (as it should be).

Mines weren't a factor in destroying US ships or shipping. However, were they not a factor in at least causing the US to focus some attention on the duties of sweeping and clearing? What about the extra caution or extra planning involved because of the existence - or possible existence - of minefields? I, for one, would like to retain this level of realism in this game.

Also, I bet if we asked sailors who served aboard minesweepers we might get a much different response than "they were NOT a factor."

Just some thoughts.

Preacher

siRkid · Post by **siRkid** » Wed May 01, 2002 12:25 am

I am enjoying the bit mines are playing in the game. Are the results historical? No, but that could be because Crocky is spending a lot of effort mining the waters and I did not counter it effectively. The Jap AI is not as aggressive at mine warfare so playing it should not upset the historical balance.

Rick

Historicaly, the US Navy wuld not have sent the Wasp off on its own but I did.

Crocky · Post by **Crocky** » Wed May 01, 2002 12:36 am

Just looking at the game Rick and I are playing he has established defensive minefields around his major bases in an effort to deter bombardment TFs and subs from coming to close which IMHO is a fair enough use of mines....also there are the odd sub laid minefield around my ports ...so the minesweepers are busy

You will love this game

The Game

Hang in there

Thanks

Mines

Re: Mines

What is the point?

Exactly