Encirclement Tips

[JS]

I thought "pending" was just for hexes that you pass close to (within your ZOC), and not actually enter. Now you're saying that the hexes you actually enter also are just pending, they don't get converted to friendly immediately? This contradicts what people have said earlier in this thread, I think.

Could someone clear up the confusion please? [&:]

[ComradeP]

We've tried to clear up the confusion a number of times, but people only seem to get more confused.

With hex control on, anything you see shaded in bright green or bright *hex type colour* is what you owned at the start of your turn. Those are friendly hexes. Everything shaded with a darker colour, but not red, is "pending". It will turn to your control after you hit end turn. Those hexes are still considered to be enemy hexes as far as the MP movement cost is concerned, but non-combat units can move through them normally, provided there are no enemy units next to the hex. Red shaded hexes are enemy hexes.

[henri51]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

We've tried to clear up the confusion a number of times, but people only seem to get more confused.

With hex control on, anything you see shaded in bright green or bright *hex type colour* is what you owned at the start of your turn. Those are friendly hexes. Everything shaded with a darker colour, but not red, is "pending". It will turn to your control after you hit end turn. Those hexes are still considered to be enemy hexes as far as the MP movement cost is concerned, but non-combat units can move through them normally, provided there are no enemy units next to the hex. Red shaded hexes are enemy hexes.

I am not trying to argue, just trying to understand. And thanks for trying to make me understand. The shading is useful for my move, but it is useless for the understanding of the Soviet move (playing against the AI), since I never see their move but only the RESULT of their move.So it is irrelevant for this discussion.Part of the confusion is that I am discussing playing against the AI whereas you are assuming pbem play.

From what you say, for purposes of getting out of a pocket, pending or no pending has no effect, since ownership and MP requirements for the phasing player only changes at the end of a move (friendly or otherwise). So when the Russian AI is moving (invisibly), whether or not he has pending hexes is irrelevant to getting out of the pocket.

This implies that as the Germans, if I close a pocket with pending hexes (say leaving one or 2 hexes between my encircling units), the Soviets cannot make it easier to leave the pocket by getting "pending hexes", i.e.by moving a unit from outside the pocket into an encircling hex adjacent to one of my encircling units.Any hex that becomes pending for the Russian will only change to Russian ownership at the end of the Russian move.

Assuming this is true, it leaves two questions: 1) How did the Russians get out of the pocket? 2) Does the intruding Russian unit cancel out my ZOC on the hex he is occupying, therefore allowing Russian units to enter that hex and leave it without paying any penalty? For purposes of discussion, suppose all clear terrain.

If (2) is true, if there were only one empty hex between my encircling units (now occupied by a Russian unit during the Russian move), a Russian escaping the pocket would still have to enter one of my ZOCs before entering the Russian-occupied hex, then enter another of my ZOCs as he leaves the Russian hex, then pay the cost of leaving an enemy ZOC as he gets away.This is a lot of points in addition to the points required to get to the edge of the pocket...

If there were 2 hexes between my encircling units, then an escaping Russian unit could get out without going through any of my ZOCs, but he would still have to pay the movement costs to get out of the pocket, and whatever the movement cost is to get over one of his own units that is in my ZOC.

For play against the AI, there have been previous discussions (which I did not understand) to the effect that the AI rules presume some kind of "simultaneous" movement that may or may not contradict the above description of what happens during the Russian move. Is that the problem here? Does the AI have some "special" rules that allow them to get out of the pocket more easily? If so, where is this in the manual?

Henri

[ComradeP]

The AI magic moves shouldn't been removed in either the previous patch, or will be removed in the next.

Assuming this is true, it leaves two questions: 1) How did the Russians get out of the pocket? 2) Does the intruding Russian unit cancel out my ZOC on the hex he is occupying, therefore allowing Russian units to enter that hex and leave it without paying any penalty? For purposes of discussion, suppose all clear terrain.

Which pocket are we talking about?

ZOC is never cancelled out. If you place a unit next to an enemy unit and it's your turn, you'll feel the enemy ZOC. If it's the enemy turn, he'll feel yours.

Pending friendly hexes are friendly as far as the supply state of the unit (in supply or isolated) is concerned, which is how you restore (theoretical) supply to a pocket, making sure the units in the pocket are not isolated any longer.

As I said, pending hexes are still considered to be enemy as far as movement penalties are concerned, so in many cases the Soviets won't actually get out of pockets, as most of their units in 1941 can't move more than 2 hexes into enemy terrain, especially not with enemy ZOC covering the hexes.

[Mynok]

ORIGINAL: henri51

From what you say, for purposes of getting out of a pocket, pending or no pending has no effect, since ownership and MP requirements for the phasing player only changes at the end of a move (friendly or otherwise). So when the Russian AI is moving (invisibly), whether or not he has pending hexes is irrelevant to getting out of the pocket.

I believe your confusion is you are far too worried about the AI 'getting out of the pocket' instead of concerning yourself with ensuring it remains isolated throughout the entire Soviet turn. Isolation has to do with supply tracing, NOT movement.

ZOCs do not necessarily stop supply tracing, though they affect it in causing motor pool damage. Pending enemy controlled hexes absolutely DO stop supply tracing, just as pending friendly controlled hexes ALLOW supply tracing.

All the Soviet player has to do is get a string of pending friendly controlled hexes into the pocket and it is no longer a pocket. The units will not be isolated at the start of the Axis turn. This does not mean that they 'escaped' the pocket.

[henri51]

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The AI magic moves shouldn't been removed in either the previous patch, or will be removed in the next.

Assuming this is true, it leaves two questions: 1) How did the Russians get out of the pocket? 2) Does the intruding Russian unit cancel out my ZOC on the hex he is occupying, therefore allowing Russian units to enter that hex and leave it without paying any penalty? For purposes of discussion, suppose all clear terrain.

Which pocket are we talking about?

ZOC is never cancelled out. If you place a unit next to an enemy unit and it's your turn, you'll feel the enemy ZOC. If it's the enemy turn, he'll feel yours.

Pending friendly hexes are friendly as far as the supply state of the unit (in supply or isolated) is concerned, which is how you restore (theoretical) supply to a pocket, making sure the units in the pocket are not isolated any longer.

As I said, pending hexes are still considered to be enemy as far as movement penalties are concerned, so in many cases the Soviets won't actually get out of pockets, as most of their units in 1941 can't move more than 2 hexes into enemy terrain, especially not with enemy ZOC covering the hexes.

OK this is helpful (I had missed the important difference between supply and movement penalty), but you did not answer the question about what happens to a ZOC hex when an enemy unit moves into it? Does the occupying unit immediately cancel the ZOC in the hex that he is occupying, so that units friendly to that unit pay no ZOC penalties when entering or leaving that hex?

And it is my guess that the "magic" AI moves out of pockets have not yet been fixed (at least not totally), because except for the first move, Soviets are still getting most of their units out of my pockets during their "hidden" phase.

Thx for the explanations.

Henri

[ComradeP]

but you did not answer the question about what happens to a ZOC hex when an enemy unit moves into it? Does the occupying unit immediately cancel the ZOC in the hex that he is occupying, so that units friendly to that unit pay no ZOC penalties when entering or leaving that hex?

As I said: ZOC is never cancelled out.

[Mynok]

And it is my guess that the "magic" AI moves out of pockets have not yet been fixed (at least not totally), because except for the first move, Soviets are still getting most of their units out of my pockets during their "hidden" phase.

I'd be very interested to see this in a before/after screenshot. I have zero problems with Russians escaping my pockets. Now they break them from time to time meaning I have to isolate again and wait another turn to kill them. But I've never seen a magic escape from a non-routed unit.