Road to Moscow game (never released)

[Kuokkanen]

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

Rules of Engagement (at least the original)

I feel a need to elaborate this. Game is tactical scale space combat sim/strategy in real time, very similar to Starfleet Command series. However, allied ships have much of difference between their respective "personalities": some act exactly as player commands, some others don't give a damn and act as they please.

[daft]

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

ORIGINAL: Kuokkanen

Rules of Engagement (at least the original)

I feel a need to elaborate this. Game is tactical scale space combat sim/strategy in real time, very similar to Starfleet Command series. However, allied ships have much of difference between their respective "personalities": some act exactly as player commands, some others don't give a damn and act as they please.

Ahhh... Never played it. Kind of like the sound of that. Getting a Pattonesque space cowboy as a subordinate.

[Capitaine]

ORIGINAL: daft

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

I guess that's it. But I find the player agency in actually moving the units to be the essence of wargaming. Your scenario appears to be more of a "command simulator" which, while not an absurd pursuit, nevertheless has never been something I've been interested in experiencing. If it were a military officer training exercise I guess it would have more purpose. But wargames have always been about moving your own units the way you see fit (YOU recreate history by assuming total command -- within certain realistic constraints).

Is the act of moving your units really the essence of wargaming? Player agency comes in many forms and can be surrounded by different sorts of constraints that can be both historical and ahistorical. This is obviously highly subjective, and I suppose that is why we differ in what we see as the essence of wargaming.

Yes, in many ways it would be a command simulator with the ability to intervene perhaps, for those that like that sort of control. It would certainly be different from the War in the Wests as you possibly wouldn't have extreme control of the totality of your sides logistical machine. Yet player agency exists much in the same way as it would in real life, or quite possibly expanded beyond that depending on how it would fit in from a game perspective. Influencing people up the chain of command in various ways, connections, what have you. So yes, in many ways more of a simulator than "wargame" in that sense.

Also, none of this threatens the existence of the types of games we already have. Not everything has to conform to the standards, all of the time. I see much of the same in subsims of yesteryear. Always a focus on the MACHINE rather than the experience of being in command of a submarine. There's a difference in fidelity, and both are valid and worthwile designs in my opinion.

Yes. I stand by my statement. I've been playing board and computer wargames since 1974 and virtually every one has involved moving your units. At least wargames designed to be played solo or between two people. I don't know if you're new to all this, but having wild ideas about reinventing the wheel in wargaming hasn't met with profitable results in most cases. Name some real examples where you don't move your units?

[daft]

No, I will not, because I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You've been doing this since '74 apparently, so why would I try to take away your enjoyment of a particular set of game mechanics? That would only end in frustration, so there is no need to stand by anything because I'm not here to take that away from you. For me personally, the essence of wargaming is not simply moving your units. It is much more than that. Secondly, I'm not even arguing that you shouldn't be able to move your units. The mechanics surrounding movement of said units might be different from what you are thinking of, but nothing I've said (I think anyway) even hints at the player not being able to move your units.

So again, I didn't resurrect this thread in order to tell you that you are having fun the wrong way. You are more than welcome to enjoy games and game mechanics any way you want.

[Capitaine]

Yes, well thank you for not addressing any point I was making. You don't seem to want to address the quandary of a wargame which doesn't involve a player moving units, and I can guess why. This isn't "my" means of enjoyment, it's a fact. And your reply demonstrates that.

[daft]

You're welcome.