Balance and Difficulty
Moderators: Hubert Cater, BillRunacre
RE: Balance and Difficulty
Finished my first game, I had no crashes. I played the Axis on Beginner Level, the Allied Computer was set to no bonus. The game ended at the beginning of the May 7, 1947 turn, I don't know how many turns the game lasted. My only prior experience with SC was with one attempt to play SC2, which I played until 1944 but overall didn't like it. I played Commander Europe at War recently for a few months and found SC3 to be similar enough to almost be familiar. I've found SC3 to have many very nice features and mechanics. Hex side rivers, unit swapping, units can move and attack, and naval cruise for a few.
Its my first time so I suppose I will get used to some things and maybe like them, but for now Production and Research are too complicated, too many choices, but I understand this is what many want and at least it is not like Hearts of Iron. I question why a few separate AA, AT and Artillery units are included as they aren't appropriate for a no stacking corps level game. Same for non-combat HQ units. In the expanse of Russia they may not get in the way, but they do on the Western Front.
Providing a full editor is a huge plus. This allows us to tinker on our own with the little stuff and leave the designers to do the really important stuff.
Naval aspects in an IGO/UGO are impossible, but CEaW does it better than SC3, sorry.
SC3 has a decent computer opponent plus the commitment to continue working on it. Only my first game but so far only one gamey exploit discovered, that to do with dealing with Overlord [surround the Allied hordes on the beaches and let them rot there].
The Middle East is a nightmare for game designers, but is well represented. It is fairly indefensible for both sides [although I don't know if a human Allied player can retake it], and difficult but not impossible to operate in.
Looking forward to 1.07. Thanks !
Its my first time so I suppose I will get used to some things and maybe like them, but for now Production and Research are too complicated, too many choices, but I understand this is what many want and at least it is not like Hearts of Iron. I question why a few separate AA, AT and Artillery units are included as they aren't appropriate for a no stacking corps level game. Same for non-combat HQ units. In the expanse of Russia they may not get in the way, but they do on the Western Front.
Providing a full editor is a huge plus. This allows us to tinker on our own with the little stuff and leave the designers to do the really important stuff.
Naval aspects in an IGO/UGO are impossible, but CEaW does it better than SC3, sorry.
SC3 has a decent computer opponent plus the commitment to continue working on it. Only my first game but so far only one gamey exploit discovered, that to do with dealing with Overlord [surround the Allied hordes on the beaches and let them rot there].
The Middle East is a nightmare for game designers, but is well represented. It is fairly indefensible for both sides [although I don't know if a human Allied player can retake it], and difficult but not impossible to operate in.
Looking forward to 1.07. Thanks !
- BillRunacre
- Posts: 6578
- Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:57 pm
- Contact:
RE: Balance and Difficulty
I've always used production delay in all my PBEM games over the years.
I think I would only not do so in a specific scenario where it made more sense not to, but now that designers have the ability to set the delay in turns rather than months, I doubt I will ever design any again with no delay whatsoever.
I think I would only not do so in a specific scenario where it made more sense not to, but now that designers have the ability to set the delay in turns rather than months, I doubt I will ever design any again with no delay whatsoever.
Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/FurySoftware
We're also on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/FurySoftware/
We're also on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/FurySoftware/
-
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 2:47 pm
RE: Balance and Difficulty
The game is really fantastic, nonetheless I want to share my opinon about game balance.
I have finished the axis campaign in expert level (no experience bonus) for the third time ( axis decisive victory in April 1943), in my opinion:
Diplomacy:
Spain and Turkey joined the axis easily (the first one in 1940 after UK invasion, the second one in late 1941) I don´t know how AI reacts to player allocation of diplomatic chits but if it´s possible it should counter player´s action as a priority at least in these 3 countries (Spain, Turkey and Sweden).
Research:
France hasn´t any chit invested on research, imho at least one or two chits would be fine (for instance infantry weapons and/or infantry warfare), to compensate that you could add one chit to Italy in Naval Weaponry or infantry warfare.
Infantry warfare is in my opinion too cheap. I would increase its value to 400 mpp for every country except 500 for USSR and 300 for Italy), in the last campaign I saw that every major power has reached level 3 in 1942, the same is true for Heavy Tanks (level 5 in early 1943 except Italy because Tanks affects only one unit and logically I didn´t invest).
East Front
It´s too easy for the axis to decimate USSR corps and armies, perhaps theirs defense value shouldn´t be so reduced. About the winter strike event, perhaps it would be a good idea that every supply source on occupied USSR soil could be reduced by one point or two in addition to losses. Axis armies´ advance wasn´t stopped even during winter 41 in this campaign.
Thanks for a exciting wargame.
I have finished the axis campaign in expert level (no experience bonus) for the third time ( axis decisive victory in April 1943), in my opinion:
Diplomacy:
Spain and Turkey joined the axis easily (the first one in 1940 after UK invasion, the second one in late 1941) I don´t know how AI reacts to player allocation of diplomatic chits but if it´s possible it should counter player´s action as a priority at least in these 3 countries (Spain, Turkey and Sweden).
Research:
France hasn´t any chit invested on research, imho at least one or two chits would be fine (for instance infantry weapons and/or infantry warfare), to compensate that you could add one chit to Italy in Naval Weaponry or infantry warfare.
Infantry warfare is in my opinion too cheap. I would increase its value to 400 mpp for every country except 500 for USSR and 300 for Italy), in the last campaign I saw that every major power has reached level 3 in 1942, the same is true for Heavy Tanks (level 5 in early 1943 except Italy because Tanks affects only one unit and logically I didn´t invest).
East Front
It´s too easy for the axis to decimate USSR corps and armies, perhaps theirs defense value shouldn´t be so reduced. About the winter strike event, perhaps it would be a good idea that every supply source on occupied USSR soil could be reduced by one point or two in addition to losses. Axis armies´ advance wasn´t stopped even during winter 41 in this campaign.
Thanks for a exciting wargame.
RE: Balance and Difficulty
While I love throwing some 50$ diplomacy at Spain to get them to go Axis, I agree that it probably shouldn't be that simple.
Spain had some heavy demands in order to join the Axis. Some say that Franco made his demands so large because that way he knew that Hitler would refuse and this would get Spain off the hook diplomatically.
Spain wanted Germany to have at least a 'secure' beach head in England before offering to join the Axis, and then would join only if Germany would provide massive military and economic aid [Spain was in ruins after their civil war].
Spain also had territorial demands that included interests in the Commonwealth and Vichy France. Italy had similar demands and Vichy wasn't willing to cede any territory to anybody. Hitler felt that he could come to an arrangement with Italy and Spain, and that he could manipulate Vichy after the British had come to terms.
So in the game there would have to be something like an event based on Germany, for example, occupying London and two ports in England. This could trigger a Decision Event for Germany to aid Spain at a cost of xxx MPP's per turn for the rest of the war, Spain would get parts of Vichy France and French Northwest Africa, Italy would get Tunisia and something else, and Vichy would swing toward the Allies. Take this Decision and then Spain will go Axis.
In the current game I think we have the Diplomacy expenditure and the cost to bring the Spanish forces up to strength, and this might not be enough to represent the situation.
Spain had some heavy demands in order to join the Axis. Some say that Franco made his demands so large because that way he knew that Hitler would refuse and this would get Spain off the hook diplomatically.
Spain wanted Germany to have at least a 'secure' beach head in England before offering to join the Axis, and then would join only if Germany would provide massive military and economic aid [Spain was in ruins after their civil war].
Spain also had territorial demands that included interests in the Commonwealth and Vichy France. Italy had similar demands and Vichy wasn't willing to cede any territory to anybody. Hitler felt that he could come to an arrangement with Italy and Spain, and that he could manipulate Vichy after the British had come to terms.
So in the game there would have to be something like an event based on Germany, for example, occupying London and two ports in England. This could trigger a Decision Event for Germany to aid Spain at a cost of xxx MPP's per turn for the rest of the war, Spain would get parts of Vichy France and French Northwest Africa, Italy would get Tunisia and something else, and Vichy would swing toward the Allies. Take this Decision and then Spain will go Axis.
In the current game I think we have the Diplomacy expenditure and the cost to bring the Spanish forces up to strength, and this might not be enough to represent the situation.
RE: Balance and Difficulty
The game is really fantastic,
+1Thanks for a exciting wargame.
RE: Balance and Difficulty
Axis armies´ advance wasn´t stopped even during winter 41 in this campaign.
I don't agree or disagree, but I always feel compelled to point out that most of us don't play the Barbarossa part as Hitler did. We're just not that stupid to string our forces out so much in order to try to grab that one more mile. The Soviet Army sucked in December 1941 and the only way they had success was because the Axis were spread so thin and out of supply. If you do play it like that and then find that the Soviets still can't force you back by their sheer numbers, then I would agree that some adjustment might be made. But like I said, typically none of us play that way because there is no incentive to stick our necks in the noose.
Not saying anything about you or the way you play Jaimain, just a general comment.

- BillRunacre
- Posts: 6578
- Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:57 pm
- Contact:
RE: Balance and Difficulty
ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653
While I love throwing some 50$ diplomacy at Spain to get them to go Axis, I agree that it probably shouldn't be that simple.
Spain had some heavy demands in order to join the Axis. Some say that Franco made his demands so large because that way he knew that Hitler would refuse and this would get Spain off the hook diplomatically.
Spain wanted Germany to have at least a 'secure' beach head in England before offering to join the Axis, and then would join only if Germany would provide massive military and economic aid [Spain was in ruins after their civil war].
Spain also had territorial demands that included interests in the Commonwealth and Vichy France. Italy had similar demands and Vichy wasn't willing to cede any territory to anybody. Hitler felt that he could come to an arrangement with Italy and Spain, and that he could manipulate Vichy after the British had come to terms.
So in the game there would have to be something like an event based on Germany, for example, occupying London and two ports in England. This could trigger a Decision Event for Germany to aid Spain at a cost of xxx MPP's per turn for the rest of the war, Spain would get parts of Vichy France and French Northwest Africa, Italy would get Tunisia and something else, and Vichy would swing toward the Allies. Take this Decision and then Spain will go Axis.
In the current game I think we have the Diplomacy expenditure and the cost to bring the Spanish forces up to strength, and this might not be enough to represent the situation.
Good point and I will think about what you're saying with regards to Spain mobilizing in response to an Axis landing in the UK, but just want to add for now that there is already a Decision like you're suggesting for when Germany holds Algiers:
DE 603 - Germany: Entice Franco To Enter The War?
Event fires: If France has surrendered, Italy has joined the Axis, Spain is neutral but with at least a 30% leaning towards the Axis, Algiers and Casablanca are in Axis hands, with a German unit within 3 hexes of Algiers, and there are no Allied troops in France, or within 5 hexes of Oran or Casablanca.
Cost of accepting: 800 MPPs at 200 MPPs a turn for 4 turns.
Yes: Franco will join the Axis, annex Morocco, and crush any internal opposition, and and (unless she has already entered the war) the USA will swing 8-15% towards the Allies.
No: Spain will have to be enticed into entering the war via regular diplomacy, though conquering Egypt and capturing the Suez Canal will encourage Franco to join the Axis.
Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/FurySoftware
We're also on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/FurySoftware/
We're also on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/FurySoftware/
RE: Balance and Difficulty
I hadn't met those requirements so I hadn't seen that DE yet, but I figured you had something in there.
There might be two points missing from that, one is that Germany would have been strapped to giving aid to Spain for the rest of the war [not that Hitler might have just ignored the agreement if it suited him to], and second that Franco didn't believe that a US backed England would lose, therefore his requirement for a firm Axis lodgement in Britain.
There might be two points missing from that, one is that Germany would have been strapped to giving aid to Spain for the rest of the war [not that Hitler might have just ignored the agreement if it suited him to], and second that Franco didn't believe that a US backed England would lose, therefore his requirement for a firm Axis lodgement in Britain.
- crispy131313
- Posts: 2125
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:37 pm
RE: Balance and Difficulty
I agree that Spain's war entrance is oversimplified as it currently stands. I have already fully written a web of decision events to better reflect many of the neutral powers, and probably about 10-12 relate directly to Spain alone. This would include the option to provide civil aid from Italy and or Germany, ongoing food supplies from Germany, military equipment to Spain from Italy and or Germany, German engineers developing the Wolfram Mines, Repayment of Spanish debt, German acceptance of the Blue Division, UK Threatens to Blockade Imports into Spain, UK Condemning the Blue Division etc.
If there is interest in expanding some of this into the game I would be willing to share some ideas and how I would implement them.
If there is interest in expanding some of this into the game I would be willing to share some ideas and how I would implement them.
Fall Weiss II - SC3 Mod
tm.asp?m=4183873
tm.asp?m=4183873
RE: Balance and Difficulty
You sound like a Script Master ! Would you tell me how to make the French 6e and 10e Armee's enter at Paris when the Germans are within 4 hexes of Paris ? [&o]
- crispy131313
- Posts: 2125
- Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 11:37 pm
RE: Balance and Difficulty
Campaign > Unit > (Open) > Copy and Paste Script and Save > Click Update* > Save Campaign
{
#NAME= France Reinforce Paris - 6e and 10e Armies
#POPUP= France Reinforces Paris
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 1
#AI= 0
#LEVEL= 0
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 0[0]
#COUNTRY_ID= 40
#TRIGGER= 100
#PRIVATE= 0
#DISPLAY_TURN= 0
#FULL_RESEARCH= 0
#DATE= 1939/09/03
#FAILSAFE_DATE= 1948/01/01
#DESTINATION_RESOURCE= 151,84
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 40 [2] [100] [0]
;Axis units within 4 hexes of Paris
#CONDITION_POSITION= 151,84 [3,4] [1,1] [1] [0]
#UNIT= 5 [10] [1] [6e]
#UNIT= 5 [10] [1] [10e]
}
{
#NAME= France Reinforce Paris - 6e and 10e Armies
#POPUP= France Reinforces Paris
#IMAGE=
#SOUND=
#FLAG= 1
#TYPE= 1
#AI= 0
#LEVEL= 0
#GV= 1[1,100]
#LINK= 0[0]
#COUNTRY_ID= 40
#TRIGGER= 100
#PRIVATE= 0
#DISPLAY_TURN= 0
#FULL_RESEARCH= 0
#DATE= 1939/09/03
#FAILSAFE_DATE= 1948/01/01
#DESTINATION_RESOURCE= 151,84
#VARIABLE_CONDITION= 40 [2] [100] [0]
;Axis units within 4 hexes of Paris
#CONDITION_POSITION= 151,84 [3,4] [1,1] [1] [0]
#UNIT= 5 [10] [1] [6e]
#UNIT= 5 [10] [1] [10e]
}
Fall Weiss II - SC3 Mod
tm.asp?m=4183873
tm.asp?m=4183873
RE: Balance and Difficulty
Wow, excellent, thank you very much !! There are a few lines in there I don't understand yet, but I'm working on it.
RE: Balance and Difficulty
It feels to me like transport and operation costs are a bit too high. Maybe there should be a cap to the maximum it costs to transport a unit? Like 30 MPP? This may hurt balance too much so I"d be interested to hear other people's input.
RE: Balance and Difficulty
I only transport or operate on rare occasions, I'd rather not spend the MPP's. I don't know if it is too much or not, I'm just cheap.
I have not played the Allies yet, and they probably do a lot more of this type of movement.
I have not played the Allies yet, and they probably do a lot more of this type of movement.
RE: Balance and Difficulty
I'm thinking that the Soviets have an advantage, or the Germans have a disadvantage, because both sides have the same Action Points. The Soviets were a lot less flexible historically.
I have not played as the Allies yet, but it seems like the UK is at a supply disadvantage in Egypt. I'm thinking that maybe the port of Suez should be a 10 resource, maybe ?
I have not played as the Allies yet, but it seems like the UK is at a supply disadvantage in Egypt. I'm thinking that maybe the port of Suez should be a 10 resource, maybe ?
- Ostwindflak
- Posts: 667
- Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:36 pm
- Location: New Hampshire
RE: Balance and Difficulty
The UK's supply isn't really a factor in Egypt. It is quite easy to keep your units at full strength (10). The problem they tend to run into is not having a good HQ (sack and replace with a better one) and having too few units at times (ship more in and buy local garrisons to free up Corps and Armies). Those are my solutions that work for me.
RE: Balance and Difficulty
sPz if you took Malta as the Axis that would also change the supply "balance" in Egypt.
RE: Balance and Difficulty
Seeing the recent reports of either Allies or Axis attacking Luxembourg to their advantage made me wonder. I think that an attack on any of the three neutrals [BeNeLux] would have caused the others to throw in with the other side. Seems reasonable, but I don't know if it is possible to script.
- BillRunacre
- Posts: 6578
- Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:57 pm
- Contact:
RE: Balance and Difficulty
It's certainly possible to script. I'm just not sure how relevant an Allied move into Luxembourg might have been to Belgium.
I don't have access to any information to guide us either way on this, but my instinct is sceptical that Belgium would have joined the Axis in response. A small swing towards the Axis might be more reasonable. Its only tangible game effect would then be to stop Belgium joining the Allies should the Axis declare war on the Netherlands.
In theory this works, but in practice I'm not sure this is right either. Reason being that Belgium would probably have still seen the Axis as a greater threat, especially given that an invasion of the Netherlands could only be the prelude of an invasion of their own country, and the Belgians remembered very well who had invaded, and who had come to their aid, in 1914.
The Netherlands is different as I would imagine that they were hoping to remain neutral just as they had been in WWI, so I think a move into Luxembourg or even Belgium wouldn't necessarily affect their mobilization greatly.
I don't have access to any information to guide us either way on this, but my instinct is sceptical that Belgium would have joined the Axis in response. A small swing towards the Axis might be more reasonable. Its only tangible game effect would then be to stop Belgium joining the Allies should the Axis declare war on the Netherlands.
In theory this works, but in practice I'm not sure this is right either. Reason being that Belgium would probably have still seen the Axis as a greater threat, especially given that an invasion of the Netherlands could only be the prelude of an invasion of their own country, and the Belgians remembered very well who had invaded, and who had come to their aid, in 1914.
The Netherlands is different as I would imagine that they were hoping to remain neutral just as they had been in WWI, so I think a move into Luxembourg or even Belgium wouldn't necessarily affect their mobilization greatly.
Follow us on Twitter: https://twitter.com/FurySoftware
We're also on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/FurySoftware/
We're also on Facebook! https://www.facebook.com/FurySoftware/
RE: Balance and Difficulty
Then get crackin', lol ! Here is why :It's certainly possible to script.
We'd have to ask the Belgians for an opinion on that, but for SC3 purposes, it is relevant that France never attack a neutral as this would swing world opinion against them.I'm just not sure how relevant an Allied move into Luxembourg might have been to Belgium.
The Belgians declared neutrality in 1936 so that they would be left out of 'their neighbors disputes'. This is relevant because the French were not allied with Belgium [nor Holland nor Luxembourg]. The German attack on all three countries in 1940 gave the French an excuse to intervene on their territory. Luxembourg had no military so could do nothing, the Belgians and Netherlands quickly pulled back to defend their capitols leaving France [and the BEF] to do what they did.... my instinct is sceptical that Belgium would have joined the Axis in response. A small swing towards the Axis might be more reasonable.
While I agree with your instinct, I disagree with allowing France [or UK] to attack neutrals without repercussions in SC3.
If the Axis had attacked Holland or Luxembourg, Belgium would have realized that their 'neutral' status meant nothing, and they would have joined the Allies [or politically at least allowed French cooperation]. If the French had attacked Luxembourg in order to gain a better position against their German enemy, I guess I can agree that Belgium wouldn't have swung too much, but for SC3 it doesn't seem right to give the French a free pass on this. Politically both France and England were in the worlds poop schute for allowing Czechoslovakia and Poland to fall without any assistance [they were allied].Its only tangible game effect would then be to stop Belgium joining the Allies should the Axis declare war on the Netherlands.
... Belgium would probably have still seen the Axis as a greater threat,
Certainly, as France would never have attacked Belgium [nor Luxembourg].
Therefore, for SC3 purposes, it makes sense for Belgium to join the Allies if Holland is attacked.... given that an invasion of the Netherlands could only be the prelude of an invasion of their own country, and the Belgians remembered very well who had invaded, and who had come to their aid, in 1914.
I'm with you on that. Again though, for SC3 purposes, to prevent the Germans getting a free pass, if Belgium or Luxembourg is attacked by Germany, a chance that Holland joins the Allies ? Or if the Allies attack Luxembourg, a chance that Holland joins the Axis ?The Netherlands is different as I would imagine that they were hoping to remain neutral just as they had been in WWI, so I think a move into Luxembourg or even Belgium wouldn't necessarily affect their mobilization greatly.
While I was typing all of this, the dog fell asleep and never woke up, the wife kept shaking her head at me, the cat played with something on the floor that I couldn't see, and the baby slept thru it all.