GD1938 Game 26

[ironduke1955]

I would be more sympathetic to such a change in game twenty sixes house rules if the Germans had attacked the Soviets, as they did not and were attacked by the Soviets, who had just invaded Poland a British ally, The British and French (Lets not kid ourselves we are talking about attacking Germany and Italy) asking for permission to attack the Germans in March 1940 has no logical basis. As things stand a war between Hitlers Germany and the West may well be on the cards in the distant future assuming they are victorious against the Soviets, and there is no guarantee that they will be.

Couple of questions to answer in the above scenario would Churchill have intervened, most certainly not he would rubbed his hands in glee that two potential enemies were ripping each other apart.

Why would the USA intervene assuming they could, and that is not certain as they are still neutral and could still be well into 1941. The USA even in 1939 had a very dim view of Communism.

[ernieschwitz]

I have to agree with Tom. If anything the French and British would jump at this chance, and try to install a new (puppet perhaps) Tsar, ending the shortlived reign of the Soviet Union. History shows that they tried to do that exacat thing, before the Soviet Union was fully formed, no reason they wouldn't try that against what would be viewed as a (power) hungry USSR...

But in game terms, and in view of balance, perhaps it would be better as Chuck suggests. There is the issue of the Versaille treaty being broken, as Germany clearly has built up it's military to unacceptable proportions... The French might be more inclined to that view.

[cpdeyoung]

I do understand what you are saying, and I have sympathy.

You have come up with some interesting historical arguments but we are playing with new victory conditions so all that stuff is just fluff.

9+4+9+11+6+21+14+5+16=95VP total.
11+6+21+14+5=57 is the allied total now. 60% of total VP.
9+4+9=22 is the Axis total.

The Allies can win with 62.7 (63) of the 95 VP, and I think we can get there before the GR-IT-JP crowd can alter the numbers much. I know GB will have another VP next month, and GB has an excellent chance at another soon. The USA has a few that they are close to also. I think it will be a race between the warriors and the diplomats, and I think we can win the race.

We do not have to run such a race. Let all the players have a chance to fight in a year and everyone will be happier.

Chuck

[Bombur]

Remember that we need 66% of the total VP, not only VP owned by Great Powers. Since we, now have a four part alliance(China, UK, USA, France) we will need about 160 points to win, however, one of the players must have at least 30% (If I remember well total VP to win, so it won´t be easy to achieve peacefully such a victory. Let me say I´m against house rules for this game, I prefer free alliances, if we use the new victory conditions.

[ironduke1955]

To be Clear the USA UK and France are those part of the calculated 95VP ?

Just need to be clear the USA may not enter the War until 1941 so their Victory Points are not in the Bag, they may not wish to join a war against Germany and Italy after all these nations again are not the aggressors, they may in fact join the Germans and Italians or even the Japanese, also the Japanese have a voice in this as well they may tip the Victory points calculation even if the optimistic version of events put out by the British player come to pass.

"Think it will be a race between the warriors and the diplomats, and I think we can win the race."

And of course here we are early game talking about changes to agreed house rules. Way to spoil a game I am happy to restart but as every move until now has been based on the agreed house rules to change them now would unhinge the balance of the game.

And finally this is not a game of Axis and Allies the Geo Political situations generated by the mod vary from game to game and player to player time we dropped the term Axis, it infers a requirement from certain countries to act in a certain historical way that is not relevant to the free form nature of the mod.

[ernieschwitz]

And finally this is not a game of Axis and Allies the Geo Political situations generated by the mod vary from game to game and player to player time we dropped the term Axis, it infers a requirement from certain countries to act in a certain historical way that is not relevant to the free form nature of the mod.

Actually the house rules put in place was to ensure that we had an Axis/Allies/Communist type game. I am not a proponent of a "free form game". That is more Alexandres turf, to be honest. I consider a free form game like this to be an abomination. This was never meant to be Risk. This was meant to be a what-if WW2 experience.

Alexandre on the other hand may be thrilled. I am not so.

[ironduke1955]

It would be nice to be able to model ATG to perfectly represent the Second World War but it simply cannot be done, its why we are where we are, with Free Form. And I put the following argument in favour of free form and the GD1938 MOD.

The Second World War was a unbalanced conflict in resources manpower and material the Allied powers should win nine times out of ten, with free form new and dynamic alliances can be formed it dosn't get staid or boring because it never follows the same pattern, and as such is more like real History, History is like Chaos theory small changes causing seismic shifts in events. You can try and force players to follow a set of historical triggers and push them down channels to reach a historically acceptable result. But its not real history that's dynamic. And it ignores the greatest strength of GD1938 the equipment modelling that allows players to pick and chose famous names like the T34 Tiger and Sherman in all there incarnations. That's why I play not for its historical authenticity but the chance to fight using modelled equipment of the day. And to my mind that is where GD1938 could expand to include more versions and variants and even some what ifs. That's why I play that's what I enjoy the stars of the MOD are the men planes tanks and ships.

[ernieschwitz]

... That may be your wish. But without the 1000s of lines of code, what would GD 1938 be? Not the game you are playing right now...

[ironduke1955]

Not the game you are playing right now ?

Well does this sound like a attempt to replicate the second world war.

1938 March the Soviet Union invades Poland.

1938 August the Soviet Union declares war on Germany.

As I said chaos theory at work.

[Bombur]

I cannot enter the war before 1941 but there is nothing preventing me from making alliances with other players, and, if we annex peacefully other countries then it would be possible we win. Big trouble is....if we annex everything we can but fail to win...well, we have a situation where The Axis must attack us or the game ends in a draw.
Btw, I saw no house rule preventing me from entering the war only 1941, I can enter as soon one of my allies is attacked (if I read the rules correctly)

[Bombur]

The game can be playable both as a sandbox and a simulation of WW2, however, if we want a better simulation of WW2 it would be better to play with the old victory conditions and, maybe, some restrictions on what territory to be given to allies.

[ernieschwitz]

ORIGINAL: ironduke1955

Not the game you are playing right now ?

Well does this sound like a attempt to replicate the second world war.

1938 March the Soviet Union invades Poland.

1938 August the Soviet Union declares war on Germany.

As I said chaos theory at work.

Yeah, you just don't sound very appreciative of the many hours I poured into this, but very appreciative of the hard work done by Bombur. That is ok, if you really want to, I guess I could turn all developement over to him.

[ernieschwitz]

...every time you play a card, use an officer or say, this is nifty, i didn't know ATG could do this.. that's me at work...

[ernieschwitz]

But I have to admire you bang up way of motivating me to do something more to the game/mod/scenario. Really, just keep doing what you are doing.. Keep up the good work and commentary on my efforts.

[Bombur]

A small clarification. ernie did 90% of the working hours needed to have this game working. I only did SFT´s and tech tree and also gave some suggestions on overall game concepts. I lack ernie´s ability with game code.
Of course, we always can develop a GD1939 scenario for a better simulation of WW2...could be made with Bombur mod, which has automatic research and more than 700 SFT´s.

[cpdeyoung]

9+4+9+11+6+21+14+5+16=95VP total.
11+6+21+14+5=57 is the allied total now. 60% of total VP.
9+4+9=22 is the Axis total.

I think 95VP is the sum of all VP in the world. The winner must get 66% of these and at least 33% must be held by a single player.

Remember that we need 66% of the total VP, not only VP owned by Great Powers. Since we, now have a four part alliance(China, UK, USA, France) we will need about 160 points to win

Nope, If the non-warring powers USA-GB-FR and SU-CH combine they can be very close to victory. 11+6+21+14+5=57 ending 63.

Chuck

PS : I want a chance for Bombur and I to fight, and I will wait twelve more turns if he will.

[ironduke1955]

Yes thanks Bombur I was going to volunteer for the latest game 1.25v Bombur's Mod but left it a bit late, if you need a backup player or slot becomes available then let me know.

[ironduke1955]

April 3rd 1939

Seven German and Allied armies are advancing between Christinau and Krakow, with Lvov captured and the Soviet survivors pursued and all but destroyed, more Soviet armies are detected to the East moving west a clash is inevitable.

[ironduke1955]

With respect Neutral means Neutral you cannot be Allied and Neutral its a contradiction of the English language, if you are allied with a power you cannot be neutral.

Def:not supporting or helping either side in a conflict, disagreement, etc.; impartial.

You can't be impartial if you are Allied.

Allied def:in combination or working together with.

LMAO[:D]

[cpdeyoung]

I must be missing something.

The USA has left isolation and can make alliances now.

Is there some reason the USA cannot ally with the Soviet Union that I am missing, or China, or Great Britain, or France. Do VP only count if a nation is at war? I don't think that is the case.

Chuck