Pathfinding, March formation, CONFUSION?

[jnpoint]

ORIGINAL: geordietaf

ORIGINAL: actrade

I have had the same issue. The DEV mentioned using the march command, but I believe the stacking issue is making organized movement very difficult. Try sending a formation across a bride if you want to see how bad this can get.

Hmmm... anyone got a bride I can try this with?

No geordietaf, you won't get mine

[noooooo]

This is still currently the biggest problem with the game IMO. Hopefully priority is on implementing a fix for pathfinding in narrow places. The one unit per cell thing has got to go or else any map involving bridges is borderline unplayable.

[gbem]

curious... werent most european rivers in germany fordable by the T series and 3rd gen NATO MBTs?

[Lowlaner2012]

Thanks Budd, I tried your advice on the groghead forum and my Chieftans are now sticking to the road 95% of the time...

Below is a cut and paste of Budds advice from the Grogheads forum...

All i did was put the formation in column and used march and picked one waypoint, i usually pick more way points especially if there are a bunch of road choices. I picked column in the formation window and then hit shift+F7 for march and placed my way point, you'll see the text road march at the bottom of the screen when you hit shift+F7. I think you can go into the formation window twice, meaning first hit column, and then hit march but i use shift+F7 after selecting column in the formation window.

Edit...

Honestly I don't see the problems some people are having with the path finding, I just played the desperate measures scenario and had a platoon of M1s follow a road all the way through a forest by following Budds advice above and making sure the spacing was far enough apart, it just takes some experimentation...

Cheers

[noooooo]

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

ORIGINAL: dpabrams

Vehicles travel off the autobahn and into woods or other squares that are not on the road. I assume this is a "stacking" issue and maybe this will improve when "stacking" is increased?

Exactly. I've even thought about disabling the 'narrow' formation spacing, because in the current system the units collide with each other, because of the one-unit-per-cell limitation. I hope I can increase the unit limit in the patches.

While waiting for that, I recommend to not use the narrowest spacing when moving.

Any news on the increase of single unit cell limitation? Just saw
DasTactic's new video series and with the map he picked (two bridge chokepoints on a very wide river) he's bound to run into some strange issues when units decide to start going all the way over to the other bridge just to get to the other side.

Perhaps in the mean time while it's not yet implemented, rivers should be set to "fordable" as the default. Right now with bridges, units still get extremely confused, and even the AI basically gets stuck at bridges taking many hours to cross over because they keep parking their units on the bridge and when other formations try to cross they all take an extreme long way around.

[Veitikka]

ORIGINAL: noooooo

Any news on the increase of single unit cell limitation? Just saw
DasTactic's new video series and with the map he picked (two bridge chokepoints on a very wide river) he's bound to run into some strange issues when units decide to start going all the way over to the other bridge just to get to the other side.

Lately the campaign generator has been the main focus in the engine. The increased stacking limit will likely make the system less stable, so we want to time this daring step properly.

Perhaps in the mean time while it's not yet implemented, rivers should be set to "fordable" as the default. Right now with bridges, units still get extremely confused, and even the AI basically gets stuck at bridges taking many hours to cross over because they keep parking their units on the bridge and when other formations try to cross they all take an extreme long way around.

I guess the default water setting should have been 'fordable' all along. This will be even more critical in the campaigns.

[Bivoj_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: noooooo

This is still currently the biggest problem with the game IMO. Hopefully priority is on implementing a fix for pathfinding in narrow places. The one unit per cell thing has got to go or else any map involving bridges is borderline unplayable.

I second that. To be honest, the issue with bad pathfinding is making the game unplayable for me. Not only maps with major river, but also narrow roads in heavy woods (like Finland) are unplayable.

I hope it will be addressed soon. Campaign would be nice, but making the game finally playable is way more important...

[Veitikka]

ORIGINAL: Bivoj_MatrixForum

I second that. To be honest, the issue with bad pathfinding is making the game unplayable for me. Not only maps with major river, but also narrow roads in heavy woods (like Finland) are unplayable.

I hope it will be addressed soon. Campaign would be nice, but making the game finally playable is way more important...

Well, if you see for example some photos of the Battle of Raate Road from WW2, you can see that the Soviet columns indeed found these forest roads to be 'unplayable'...

[reg_reg]

I think that this limitation is annoying, but I wouldn't call the game unplayable because of that.

I played scenarios with bridges and dense wood, and I managed to get my units across and around. I used waypoints and I had to do a bit of traffic management. I allowed only one unit on the bridge at the time, while other units were standing and waiting their turn with disabled waypoints. It sounds tedious, but it was manageable.

However, where I really had an issue was with combat in an urban environment. Let say that one unit is leading the way along the narrow street and other units are following. If the first unit would come under fire it would stop, but then units that follow would get confused and try to find their way around. That can be disastrous and it could lead them straight to enemy positions that I was trying to bypass.

Obviously, removal of stacking limitation is a way to go, but I wonder if a temporary solution could be introduced in the meantime.

For example, could we get a new movement mode, let's call it "Follow the route" mode? The unit would try to find its way around the blockage, but it would limit pathfinding to adjacent squares. And if it could not find its way around a stopped vehicle, it would stop and report that.

It is not perfect, but at least you would not end up with your unit in the wrong corner of the map.

[noooooo]

ORIGINAL: reg_reg

I think that this limitation is annoying, but I wouldn't call the game unplayable because of that.

I played scenarios with bridges and dense wood, and I managed to get my units across and around. I used waypoints and I had to do a bit of traffic management. I allowed only one unit on the bridge at the time, while other units were standing and waiting their turn with disabled waypoints. It sounds tedious, but it was manageable.

However, where I really had an issue was with combat in an urban environment. Let say that one unit is leading the way along the narrow street and other units are following. If the first unit would come under fire it would stop, but then units that follow would get confused and try to find their way around. That can be disastrous and it could lead them straight to enemy positions that I was trying to bypass.

Obviously, removal of stacking limitation is a way to go, but I wonder if a temporary solution could be introduced in the meantime.

For example, could we get a new movement mode, let's call it "Follow the route" mode? The unit would try to find its way around the blockage, but it would limit pathfinding to adjacent squares. And if it could not find its way around a stopped vehicle, it would stop and report that.

It is not perfect, but at least you would not end up with your unit in the wrong corner of the map.

That's a great idea. An sop that allows/disallows changes in pathfinding. It's certainly better than removing the water mechanics entirely.

[Bivoj_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Veitikka

Well, if you see for example some photos of the Battle of Raate Road from WW2, you can see that the Soviet columns indeed found these forest roads to be 'unplayable'...

Sorry, but that is a silly excuse.
I would be very happy to see realistic traffic jams in forests and tiny roads, but this is not the case. The AI is just dumb and it is forcing units to detour via unbelievable terrain or hell-long detour, acting non-realistically, because of the "single-unit-stacking-limit" issue.

Vehicle Commander: "Hey, Joe, there is a vehicle ahead on our road, we have to take 15km long detour and then 1km via deep forrest"
Driver Joe: "The vehicle is from platoon B and it is moving forward, the same direction as we want to go. Shouldn't we just follow them?"
Vehicle Commander: "No way! Take the detour, it is an order!"

Not even Russians in WW2 were so dumb...

[Bivoj_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: reg_reg

I think that this limitation is annoying, but I wouldn't call the game unplayable because of that.

I played scenarios with bridges and dense wood, and I managed to get my units across and around. I used waypoints and I had to do a bit of traffic management. I allowed only one unit on the bridge at the time, while other units were standing and waiting their turn with disabled waypoints. It sounds tedious, but it was manageable.

For me, it is unplayable. I hate the fiddly micromanagement, which can be somehow acceptable at "approach-the-enemy" phase, but fighting around bridge or in dense woods? I spent more focus on fiddling with waypoints, than to deal with the enemy - not fun for me. The AI should be clever enough to perform at least in believable manner.

I am waiting for patch fixing the pathfinding somehow, not playing anymore. The experience is rather frustrating as I see in the heat of battle, that one of my key units is using silly detour, while the rest of my units are being massacred by enemy... (and I did not notice immediately, because after giving the orders, I switched my attention to another part of the battlefield)

[Veitikka]

ORIGINAL: reg_reg

However, where I really had an issue was with combat in an urban environment. Let say that one unit is leading the way along the narrow street and other units are following. If the first unit would come under fire it would stop, but then units that follow would get confused and try to find their way around. That can be disastrous and it could lead them straight to enemy positions that I was trying to bypass.

Obviously, removal of stacking limitation is a way to go, but I wonder if a temporary solution could be introduced in the meantime.

For example, could we get a new movement mode, let's call it "Follow the route" mode? The unit would try to find its way around the blockage, but it would limit pathfinding to adjacent squares. And if it could not find its way around a stopped vehicle, it would stop and report that.

It is not perfect, but at least you would not end up with your unit in the wrong corner of the map.

Something like that could be one solution, but I believe that many players would not notice or understand the additional SOP option, because it seems that even the current march/quick/short/cover scheme is hard to find or grasp to some.

Another solution could be limiting the 'detour' maximum length for the player units. I believe that usually if the unit takes a massive detour then any path close to the old one is blocked, and in such cases it's not possible to stick close to the old path.

I may start working on the stacking limit quite soon. It depends on our other plans. I don't believe that it will be a silver bullet that solves all issues, but it should make collisions with units in the same formation much less common. I don't think the limit should be more than max 2 or 3 units per map cell.

[Bivoj_MatrixForum]

Limiting the detour maximum length would be great improvment!

Also, a warning message in top-left corner, that a unit is taking significant detour would help. That would lower the frustration, that you have to figure yourself, that the unit is taking non-sense path to assigned waypoint.

[Edgewalker]

Pathfinding is a total mess in this game. Very detailed mechanics are introduced yet game fails on basics. It's horribly immersion breaking when after crossing a bridge 7 of your 10 vehicle squad goes MIA and 1 goes WIA getting itself immobilised in the forest nearby for some unknown reason. I don't remember second wargame since early Steel Panthers with so much pathfinding problems, and even there it was not as bad. I realise there is prolly some trick to make it work, but I'm just not really interested, like I would be not interested in a trick to make a left mouse button work properly. I just expect it to work properly without any go arounds.

[Lowlaner2012]

Bit over the top mate, the game does alot of things right and it's depth of strategy far outway some pathfinding problems... For me anyway...

There is a method to get tanks to move on roads and bridges not a trick, maximum spacing and march type movement, it work for me at least about 80% of the time...

Cheers

[Bivoj_MatrixForum]

ORIGINAL: Lowlaner2012

Bit over the top mate, the game does alot of things right and it's depth of strategy far outway some pathfinding problems... For me anyway...

There is a method to get tanks to move on roads and bridges not a trick, maximum spacing and march type movement, it work for me at least about 80% of the time...

Cheers

Again: this fiddly micromanagement can be (wrong but) tollerable in approach-the-enemy phase, but in the heat of battle? I am losing units, because of pathfinding issues - this is no fun at all. Unless pathfinding is solved, the game is not working for me:( Which is pitty, because otherwise it is wonderful.

[noooooo]

ORIGINAL: Bivoj_MatrixForum

ORIGINAL: Lowlaner2012

Bit over the top mate, the game does alot of things right and it's depth of strategy far outway some pathfinding problems... For me anyway...

There is a method to get tanks to move on roads and bridges not a trick, maximum spacing and march type movement, it work for me at least about 80% of the time...

Cheers

Again: this fiddly micromanagement can be (wrong but) tollerable in approach-the-enemy phase, but in the heat of battle? I am losing units, because of pathfinding issues - this is no fun at all. Unless pathfinding is solved, the game is not working for me:( Which is pitty, because otherwise it is wonderful.

Yeah, everything else works so well but the pathfinding feels like the elephant in the room. If this game ever hits Steam, the pathfinding and campaign mode are must haves. With those in the game, there would be no glaring problems and would gain very good traction (for a wargame, it is still a niche genre) and income for the developers.

[nikolas93TS]

ORIGINAL: noooooo
Yeah, everything else works so well but the pathfinding feels like the elephant in the room. If this game ever hits Steam, the pathfinding and campaign mode are must haves. With those in the game, there would be no glaring problems and would gain very good traction (for a wargame, it is still a niche genre) and income for the developers.

That is exactly the plan, hehe.

[mmacguinness]

In respect of March formation, I have come to the opinion that the fundamental problem is not simply stacking limits alone, but a combination of

• stacking limits plus
• differing vehicle speeds and
• continuous pathfinding calculations
• influenced by transient stacking obstructions

resulting in the degeneration of a planned and organized march with a defined itinerary and march order into a disorganized rabble with each unit going its own way regardless of orders.

Reference FM 100-2-1 The Soviet Army Operations and Tactics, Chapter 5 Offensive Tactics: Division and Lower:

“A march is an organized troop movement conducted in column formation on roads or cross country. It may be simply an administrative move from one point to another. In wartime, however, the march often will be governed by the possibility of enemy contact. It is planned and conducted with the expectation of contact.”
And
“In any march, the challenge facing the commander is the proper disposition of combat and support elements within the column, to insure efficient transition into combat. The column organization, established before starting the march, should minimize or preclude any reorganizing before commitment in battle”
And
“The advance guard precedes the main force on the same route and provides movement security and warning. It normally consists of about one third of the total combat power of the main force. The advance guard of a motorized rifle regiment is normally a motorized rifle battalion reinforced with tank, artillery, antitank, antiaircraft, engineer, and chemical elements. The advance guard of a tank regiment is normally a similarly-reinforced tank battalion. In a division marching on multiple routes, the lead regiment on each route forms its own advance guard. There is no "divisional advance guard," as such.”



I suggest the following changes to improve the March Formation:

1. Pathfinding is calculated once only when the March order is given.
2. Pathfinding strictly adheres to the specified waypoints
3. Pathfinding should not consider temporary/transient stacking obstructions.
4. March rate (speed) must be specified in the order to ensure different units travel at the same speed.
5. All units, armor, infantry, SPA,SP-AAA, SP-SAM, AT, etc., travel at the same speed.
6. If there is an unexpected obstacle, the column (all affected units) pauses immediately pending obstacle clearance or further orders.
7. Alert message to player when a March is paused.