Remove winterdebuff unless Soviets earn it in blood!

[DesertedFox]

This flies in the face of the historical record during that time period. If you look at the historical losses of Axis forces during the Jun 1941 to Mar 42 time-frame, you will see the greatest losses generally occurred in the months of July & Sep '41 - not during the first winter.

The below figures include only those killed, not those taken prisoners or wounded.

June 1941 25.000
July 1941 63.099
Aug 1941 46.066
Sep 1941 51.033
Oct 1941 41.099
Nov 1941 36.000
Dec 1941 40.198
Total 1941 302.495

Jan 1942 48.165
Feb 1942 44.099
Mar 1942 44.132
---- following included just for reference ----
Apr 1942 23.066
May 1942 38.099
June 1942 29.033
July 1942 38.066
Aug 1942 62.165
Sep 1942 45.033
Oct 1942 25.000
Nov 1942 31.198
Dec 1942 78.759
Total 1942 506.815

Another study asserts the following losses on the Eastern Front:

(includes Dead, missing, but not POW)

June 1941 29,000
July 1941 67,132
Aug 1941 51,066
Sep 1941 53,033
Oct 1941 44,099
Nov 1941 38,000
Dec 1941 42,198
Total 1941 357,000

Jan 1942 53,165
Feb 1942 52,099
Mar 1942 46,132
--- following included for reference ---
Apr 1942 24,066
May 1942 44,099
Jun 1942 34,033
Jul 1942 46,099
Aug 1942 74,231
Sep 1942 46,033
Oct 1942 30,000
Nov 1942 38,231
Dec 1942 83,792
Total 1942 572,000

I feel that it is without question that the scope and scale of the Soviet Winter Offensive caught the Axis by surprise. Also, the gains made by the Soviets during this time period is beyond dispute.

But there is nothing to support the Axis suffered excessive combat casualties during this time period - with the possible exception equipment abandoned or otherwise lost.

I don't dispute your casualties figures but it's difficult to balance historical losses in a game of such magnitude with

complex combat, supply mechanics, etc, but there are two sides to a coin.

Having just started a PvP game under the latest patch the German troop casualties are pretty much what I have

seen from game launch and they are well below those historically. Also bear in mind these losses are for Axis, not just

Germans.

I'll take some liberties and say turn 1 = June

and turns 2 and 3 = 1/2 of July, given I am only at turn 3 in this game.

Turn 1 Axis killed = 9, 683.

Far less than the German's historical 25,000

Turns 2 and 3 combined Axis killed = 4,776 ( x2 to complete the month) = 9,552.

Once again far less than the historical German losses of 63,000.

Even taking into account Axis losses in my game for turns 4 and 5 will no doubt be higher than in turns 2 and 3, it will

still be well short of 63,000.

I don't have a solution to your Axis losses in the winter of 41-42 nor do I have an answer to have higher Axis losses in the

months leading up to the first winter.

Looking at both sides of the coin though, I do agree with this below.

I think the game is pretty well balanced for experienced players. However, the Axis side definitely has a higher learning curve, and the Soviets are very favored in a battle between less experienced players due to the easier time they have with logistics.

Once the game extends to 1943 and on, the Soviets start to really struggle with manpower, so if you haven't built up a very strong army by then, the Soviets will start to have a hard time creating successful offensives.

[jubjub]

The real issue - again - is the unhistorical/unrealistic Soviet supply situation. The Soviets can attack turn after turn and have perfect logistics fulfillment in the depths of winter. In reality, the Soviets ceased the offensive in February due to poor logistics, depleted formations, etc.

[DesertedFox]

The real issue - again - is the unhistorical/unrealistic Soviet supply situation. The Soviets can attack turn after turn and have perfect logistics fulfillment in the depths of winter. In reality, the Soviets ceased the offensive in February due to poor logistics, depleted formations, etc.

Russia's logistics were bad even at the start of the offensive. I remember reading a long time ago that some arty batteries

were limited to 8 shells per day per gun, on the offensive. As for depleted formations, you are again correct. However much

of this was because Stalin insisted on an offensive across the entire front instead of listening to his generals who wanted to

concentrate units more for breakthroughs on a much narrower front.

I suggest a player who follows Stalin's strategy here will achieve similar results.

[DarkHorse2]

This corresponds with my readings as well.

Even as early as June 1941, the Soviet logistical system was pushed to the point of breaking, with many units experiencing supply shortages as bad (or worse) than their Axis counterparts.

Also, it has been fairly documented that the Soviet Army suffered widespread vehicle shortages in 1941. (obviously this drastically improved later, due in part to the Lend-Lease.

On 22nd June 1941 the Wehrmacht had over 828,000 motor vehicles in service, of which around 638,000 were trucks. Of these, approximately 450,000 trucks and 150,000 light transports were deployed in the East in support of Operation Barbarossa.

Between 22nd Jun and 4th July 1941, the German forces invading the USSR contained over 600,000 light transports and trucks, including approximately 450,000 cargo trucks. On 22nd June 1941, the entire Soviet armed forces contained 272,600 motor-vehicles, of which approximately 193,200 were cargo trucks. This means that at the start of the campaign the Wehrmacht forces on the East Front field well over twice as many cargo trucks as the entire Red Army.

to further substantiate the state of the Soviet vehicle shortages:

Soviet Light Transport (Automobile) Production to the End of 1941
Production Period: 1927-1941
Total No. Produced: c 124,780

Soviet Truck Production to the End of 1941 (Excluding Truck Based Half-tracks and Buses)
Production Period: 1924-Dec 1941
Total No Produced: 1,125,503
Total Cargo Capacity (t): 2,355,427

In addition, the Red Army lost over 159,000 vehicles due to enemy action 1941, which represented over a third of all available Red Army vehicles.

The Red Army started the war with an incredible 61 tank divisions and 31 mechanized divisions. It is no wonder most of these divisions had barely enough motorised transport to move at all, let alone sustain prolonged combat operations.

The United States delivered to the Soviet Union from October 1, 1941, to May 31, 1945 the following: 427,284 trucks, 13,303 combat vehicles, 35,170 motorcycles, 2,328 ordnance service vehicles, 2,670,371 tons of petroleum products (gasoline and oil) or 57.8 percent of the high-octane aviation fuel, 4,478,116 tons of foodstuffs (canned meats, sugar, flour, salt, etc.), 1,911 steam locomotives, 66 diesel locomotives, 9,920 flat cars, 1,000 dump cars, 120 tank cars, and 35 heavy machinery cars. Provided ordnance goods (ammunition, artillery shells, mines, assorted explosives) amounted to 53 percent of total domestic consumption. One item typical of many was a tire plant that was lifted bodily from the Ford Company's River Rouge Plant and transferred to the USSR. The 1947 money value of the supplies and services amounted to about $11 billion.