[RESOLVED] S400 40N6 Powered All the Way

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LetMePickThat
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Re: S400 40N6 Powered All the Way

Post by LetMePickThat »

thewood1 wrote: Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:47 pm Actually it might be powered all the way, just not full power all the way. The docs state that there is actually a throttle-like control on the oxidizing mixer that operates depending on profile and target control feedback loop. So it might be powered all the way, but with a throttle for lower power at long range. That would make engineering sense at least. Its one of the advantages of the liquid system.
On the SA-5, one of the primary reasons for throttling other than to maximize PK is to keep the missile's temperature in check. ;)
The whole manual is available online, if you can read russian.
thewood1
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Re: S400 40N6 Powered All the Way

Post by thewood1 »

There are translations of it around too. I ran into one a while back, but didn't save the link. Another source is the SAM simulator...

https://sites.google.com/site/samsimula ... nxZj9QXhDM

Heard development has stopped, I think. But has some great docs on entire SAM systems.
LetMePickThat
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Re: S400 40N6 Powered All the Way

Post by LetMePickThat »

thewood1 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 2:04 pm There are translations of it around too. I ran into one a while back, but didn't save the link. Another source is the SAM simulator...

https://sites.google.com/site/samsimula ... nxZj9QXhDM

Heard development has stopped, I think. But has some great docs on entire SAM systems.
The translations are...meh.
SAMsim was awesome, but unfortunately the dev moved onto other projects. The documentation is very good, albeit centered on systems procedures rather than on the engineering behind them.
thewood1
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Re: S400 40N6 Powered All the Way

Post by thewood1 »

SO there is quite a bit of detail on all components, along with system operation. That includes major missile variants. It highlights more detail on the two flight profiles mentioned before. The long-range one does feature a non-powered final leg. Its the short range direct fire that is powered all the way.
Screenshot 2022-08-08 125630.jpg
Screenshot 2022-08-08 125630.jpg (197.18 KiB) Viewed 566 times
bsq
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Re: S400 40N6 Powered All the Way

Post by bsq »

The CMO modelling issue could well be the bit the 2nd paragraph.

Is the rarified air of the upper atmosphere modelled? Or does it assume constant density, which would account for the (dramatic) speed bleed off that many missiles suffer from, hence the powered all the (WAD but not as IRL) 40N6 and others demonstrate.

Powering missiles all the way (for some supersonic missiles) is a crude fix for a fundamental physics conundrum.
LetMePickThat
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Re: S400 40N6 Powered All the Way

Post by LetMePickThat »

thewood1 wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:00 pm SO there is quite a bit of detail on all components, along with system operation. That includes major missile variants. It highlights more detail on the two flight profiles mentioned before. The long-range one does feature a non-powered final leg. Its the short range direct fire that is powered all the way.

Screenshot 2022-08-08 125630.jpg
Yeah. More details on the control laws used for both profiles:

Image

As well as another cutaway I have lying around:

Image
Dimitris
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Re: S400 40N6 Powered All the Way

Post by Dimitris »

bsq wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:32 pm Is the rarified air of the upper atmosphere modelled? Or does it assume constant density, which would account for the (dramatic) speed bleed off that many missiles suffer from, hence the powered all the (WAD but not as IRL) 40N6 and others demonstrate.
It certainly is. Watch the mach meter next to the TAS value when a plane/missile/RV is selected. Note that, for the same TAS, mach value changes with altitude. That's because the air density is different.
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Gizzmoe
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Re: S400 40N6 Powered All the Way

Post by Gizzmoe »

bsq wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 6:32 pm Is the rarified air of the upper atmosphere modelled?
I tried to test it, here is the data and a scen. I think it is modelled in some way, but maybe I misinterpret the data. I tested it with two Sparrows fired at 45k ft and 12k, the 12k missile lost 30% of its speed due to bleedoff 15 seconds after burnout, the one at 45k ft lost 18%. But the 12k missile also had a 30% lower final burnout speed, so maybe the higher speed loss has something do with the lower inertia? I don't know...

The scen shows the two Sparrows at the moment of burnout.
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Dimitris
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Re: S400 40N6 Powered All the Way

Post by Dimitris »

LetMePickThat wrote: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:27 pm As for the subject of BMD not using the burn-coast model, I think that it is a reasonable assumption for short range and exoatmospheric systems, because those will either intercept very shortly after ECO (53T6) or fly for a significant portion of their flight outside of meaningful atmosphere. For dual-use rounds (e.g PAC-2, 48N6, Aster 30, David's Sling...), the boost-coast would IMHO provide better results. The 40N6 should definitely use the boost-coast model as well, since it isn't meant primarily for BMD. I also doubt that the solid fuel budget on the missile would allow for continuous thrust all the way to max range.
Thanks! This is actually quite useful feedback.

As a bit of a background. When we originally put together the boost-coast model, we tested it with (among other things) ABM engagements. And the results, in terms of kinematic intercept capability (and thus practical coverage area etc.) plainly didn't make sense. ABM-optimized SAMs simply didn't have the ability to meaningfully protect any area if they were subject to the same boost-coast limitations as AAW-optimized missiles.

If OTOH these missiles retained the legacy "powered all the way" abstraction, the results were pretty close to public-domain info on coverage, intercept ranges & altitudes etc.

This prompted us to further research public sources on BMD systems, discuss with relevant SMEs, compare with known test firings etc. Most evidence suggested that BMD-optimized missiles are generally designed for longer burns than AAW-oriented weapons, in order to make meaningful intercepts possible. This is reflected in their overall design, which is geared for speed at the expense of maneuverability (a typical incoming BM/RV does not maneuver significantly).

Your suggestion is interesting, and it overlaps with a number of tweaks we have in mind to better reflect the compromises of dual-use systems. The latter have to be considered quite carefully as they represent a sizable fraction of modern high-end SAM systems (everything from 40N6 to PAC-3 to 9M82xx etc. etc.). However there are other more immediate dev priorities so this will have to wait.
Then, there's also the question of multi-stage systems and how those could fit in either the continuous-power or the boost-coast model...
We handle those in the BC model, in fact, by granting them much higher "average speed to intercept point"; this leads to longer calculated burn times. It works very well for multi-pulse systems like the AIM-120D (and also other long-burn systems like Meteor). For staged missiles I guess an additional tweak could be an improved post-burnout weight fraction (for the drag & gravity calculations).
Dimitris
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Re: S400 40N6 Powered All the Way

Post by Dimitris »

Addressed in Build 1270.1 by tweaking the ABM-optimized evaluation (see B1270.1 release notes).
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