Map Graphics

[Rael]

You guys better be carefull, all of this ASL talk might bring Pavlov...eer I
mean Andreas and his creepy cat avatar over from Consim world[:-]

BTW downloaded the Breacourt scenario stuff looks great, good work.

anthony

[markhwalker]

LOL

Andreas is okay. He's passionate about ASL, and that's cool. It is an excellent system... just not my prefered cup of tea.

Best,

Mark

[WO1GKW]

Being passionate and expressing an opinion about something is fine but it seems to me that over on consimworld Andreas trys to start arguments and flame wars. If I wanted that drama I'd watch that Jerry Springer junk.
I like the halos because it gives a 3D feel in my opinion. And I prefer LnL over ASL but I haven't managed to learn much ASL. I still try because of the challenge. The big plus of LnL in my opinion is the impulse system as opposed to ASL sequence of play. LnL just flows so much better you are drawn into the action.

[markhwalker]

I still try because of the challenge. The big plus of LnL in my opinion is the impulse system as opposed to ASL sequence of play. LnL just flows so much better you are drawn into the action.

,

Virginia, where are you in Virginia? I live south of Roanoke (way south).

Yeah, I don't think learning games should be a challenge. I have enough challenges in my life without throwing in gaming. I do like the impusle system too. But in my opinion what really makes LnL great is it's 1) Realism, and 2) flavor.

Best,

Mark

[mbtanker]

Add me to those AGAINST the bright white hexes. I really like the subdued scheme the one fellow posted above.

[markhwalker]

MBT... how many scenarios have you played with BoH?

[ravinhood]

Wow I wouldn't have ever known there was a stone wall there if I hadn't seen the picture on the right. I didn't know the white lines hid that much information. Yep, it's definitely goto go Mark and definitely don't put this in the computer version.

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

Yep, it's definitely goto go Mark and definitely don't put this in the computer version.

An obvious "observation" from a non LnL buyer. So, as I haven't bought the game either, I'll give you mine.

I haven't bought a boardgame in a looooong time. But I must say, that drought came that close to ending when I saw the map and counter graphics of LnL. I personally think they rock and can't understand how someone would buy the game knowing full well what the map looked like. Weird!

This is a case of a handful of people trying to influence a developer to make a fundamental change to a game to meet their personal preferences. I say.. ignore them. The game obviously has a fan base or they wouldn't be putting out a second game; especially if everyone hated the map.

As for a computerized version, I think you would be crazy not to faithfully reproduce your game as you have published it. The one nice thing about computer graphics is that, if necessary, lines can be drawn more thinly not to overly obscure details, but to depart from your basic graphics would be madness.

Here is wishing you luck on your present efforts and future projects. Keep it up, maybe one day, I just might buy a boardgame again... yours.

Ray (alias Lava)

[markhwalker]

This is a case of a handful of people trying to influence a developer to make a fundamental change to a game to meet their personal preferences.

Hi Ray,

I couldn't agree more, and thanks for the support. As I've said in 2,354 other places. I have YET to speak with one, single, solitary LNL **player** who wants the maps changed. The only folks who have any problem with the maps are first impressionists and those that don't even own a copy of the game. Even those weigh in at about 1.5% of the total number of copies sold. Nope, changing the maps hasn't even crossed my mind. It's a LnL trademark and will always stay so.

Best,

Mark

[rickbill]

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

I have YET to speak with one, single, solitary LNL **player** who wants the maps changed...

Hmm, I'm a LNL player (but, I don't play exclusively LNL ... maybe that's the distinction) and I consider the highlighted hexsides an annoyance especially when there is hexside terrain underneath. Do I consider it something which will make or break buying future modules in the game system? Probably not. But, I wish you would consider not placing it there on future maps - hexsides aren't critical to gameplay IMO but obscurring hexside terrain to a degree where it is difficult to recognize is an issue (On more than one occassion, I've asked myself "Is that a hedge or is it bocage?"). But, hey if you and Matrix consider it essential enough to make it your "trademark" ... ok, but you've got many features in this gamesystem which are much stronger candidates to hang your hat on as "trademarks"!

Personally, I think the best maps I've seen for tactical wargames are those made by CRITICAL HIT. I especially like their "historical" (ok, historically based at least) maps for Pointe du Huc, Stalingrad, Arnhem, and Kursk. I also hear the map they made for Berlin is excellent as well.

BTW, I like the Brecourt Manor mapboard for LnL very much! (by magua, IIRC) ... he even included the truck wreck along the hedgeline to the north - WELL DONE!!

[Magua]

ORIGINAL: Lava

This is a case of a handful of people trying to influence a developer to make a fundamental change to a game to meet their personal preferences. I say.. ignore them. The game obviously has a fan base or they wouldn't be putting out a second game; especially if everyone hated the map.

I'm sorry Lava, but I find your post insulting, and your general categorizations are simply wrong. This is not a "handful" of people, and it is not "personal preferences." Please read all of the posts in this thread. Look especially at the post with the comparison pics. Fact: the halos obstruct the hexside terrain on the map. This is a bad thing. Fact: The haloed dot, hexsides, and hex-number obscure the the terrain within the hex. This is also a bad thing. It is not a personal preference. Now, how bad, is a matter of conjecture. But let me say this. I have purchased hundreds of hex-based boardgames in my sorry life, and have never seen the use of halos. They are not needed, at least not to the degree that we see on the BoH boards. In fact, hexsides, center dots, and hex-numbers have traditionally been considered a neccessary evil in board games, and many designers have gone to great lengths to minimize their use and appearance over the years. In a sense, the use of the halos is a marketing gamble; a breaking of the paradigm. It is fixing something that ain't broke.

The argument is valid. The very fact that it is still being discussed here lends creedance to that.

Finally your suggestion to Mark that he "ignore" the comments and feedback posted here is, in my opinion, horrible advice. He doesn't have to accept anything we say here, but he would be foolish to ignore us.

I want this line to thrive as much as anyone, but I am not going to patronize Mark. That is a formula for failure.

Please do not trivialize our feedback.

regards,

magua

[Magua]

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

This is a case of a handful of people trying to influence a developer to make a fundamental change to a game to meet their personal preferences.

Hi Ray,

I couldn't agree more, and thanks for the support. As I've said in 2,354 other places. I have YET to speak with one, single, solitary LNL **player** who wants the maps changed. The only folks who have any problem with the maps are first impressionists and those that don't even own a copy of the game. Even those weigh in at about 1.5% of the total number of copies sold. Nope, changing the maps hasn't even crossed my mind. It's a LnL trademark and will always stay so.

Best,

Mark

Mark, I think your assumptions here are incorrect. First, to assume that the only people with an intelligent opinion on this subject must be **players** is a nutty notion. Also, to blow off the opinions of those that you consider "first impressionists" or "that don't own a copy" is without merit. It is these types that offer the most unbiased, and therefore valuable opinions.

Now, if you want a really objective opinion, at the next con, provide a set of maps with, and without the halos, and see what the non **players** prefer (Do the Pepsi challenge . The **players** are going to buy your next game no matter what it looks like, but it's the non-players that you want to get on board and to turn into **players**.

But that really isn't the issue here. As you have stated, the halos are a "trademark," and will stay. I accept that, as should we all. (I indicated this in the email I sent you. In fact, take a look at the new Brecourt map I sent Eric.)

I think we should all respect your decision on this, and this seriously overworked topic should be put to bed.

Can we lock this thread?

[*Lava*]

ORIGINAL: Magua

I'm sorry Lava, but I find your post insulting, and your general categorizations are simply wrong.

I just call it like I see it bud.

Ray (alias Lava)

[Magua]

ORIGINAL: Lava

ORIGINAL: Magua

I'm sorry Lava, but I find your post insulting, and your general categorizations are simply wrong.

I just call it like I see it bud.

Ray (alias Lava)

...and would that be your "personal preference?"

[crabe tambour]

Hi Magua,
My 2p [;)]

ORIGINAL: Magua
This is not a "handful" of people

Yes it is. Count complaining people and compare to the sales. Count complaining people and compare to all the people who express themselves on the net about LnL. It's a handful of people.

ORIGINAL: Magua
and it is not "personal preferences."

Yes it is. I prove it : i like the halos stuff, I like the 3D feeling, I like the general look it gives to the map, and it NEVER was an obstacle to me to understand the terrain (NE-VER). And I'm not alone... Haloluia.
I think this complaint was never occured with Forgotten Heroes.. A lot of people play a lot with the halos stuff since the first release of the game without "difficulties".
Here, someone said on a forum "these halos are BAD" and it became a sort of fashioned subject. A sort of rumor. Like if everybody should have to have an opinion on this. I met someone in a con who said something against the halos and he had never seen a LnL board (!). He just read something on it (maybe here). Internet blabla. Sorry Magua, but to me, it's a non-subject. And wargamers net runners like a lot talking about non subject (maybe they don't play enough).

ORIGINAL: Magua
Look especially at the post with the comparison pics.

I just did it (again). And (could you admit that?), i prefer the left pic.

ORIGINAL: Magua
In a sense, the use of the halos is a marketing gamble; a breaking of the paradigm. It is fixing something that ain't broke.

To me, it's also an artistic direction. A choice for a general look. Sometthing that LnL did good.

About the "Pepsi Challenge" : if designing a game was a matter of referendum, i bet that there would be no more published games. I'm not new to wargames, but I'm quiet new to wargames forums. And i'm often stunned. Wargamers are weird customers. They always want something else that what they knew they bought. Or they always want something for free. Or they always know how to do better, about rules, about graphic design, about commercial politics etc.... I just wonder why they don't publish their own games . Etc etc etc. They always talk a lot.
But thanks gods, wargames have nothing to do with referendum...

Best,
Olivier

PS : I'm waiting you on the list my friend [;)]

[Magua]

ORIGINAL: crabe tambour

Hi Magua,
My 2p [;)]

ORIGINAL: Magua
This is not a "handful" of people

Yes it is. Count complaining people and compare to the sales. Count complaining people and compare to all the people who express themselves on the net about LnL. It's a handful of people.

Hey Crabe-

The only data we have is what we've seen in this column. If I have counted correctly, there are more people here who don't like them than like them. Show me a poll that says otherwise, and you'll make a believer out of me. So, if we are talking about our little community here, then it is not a handful. If you're talking about the worldwide web, then we are talking about a grain of sand on the beach.

ORIGINAL: Magua
and it is not "personal preferences."

Yes it is. I prove it : i like the halos stuff, I like the 3D feeling, I like the general look it gives to the map, and it NEVER was an obstacle to me to understand the terrain (NE-VER). And I'm not alone... Haloluia.
I think this complaint was never occured with Forgotten Heroes.. A lot of people play a lot with the halos stuff since the first release of the game without "difficulties".
Here, someone said on a forum "these halos are BAD" and it became a sort of fashioned subject. A sort of rumor. Like if everybody should have to have an opinion on this. I met someone in a con who said something against the halos and he had never seen a LnL board (!). He just read something on it (maybe here). Internet blabla. Sorry Magua, but to me, it's a non-subject. And wargamers net runners like a lot talking about non subject (maybe they don't play enough).

I'm not saying that you can't have a personal preference. And certainly for some that don't like them, it is a personal preference. But for some of us, there is the very practical reasons we don't like them. They obscure the map terrain, and make it harder to see. That's a fact. If you don't mind that, then that's your preference. And as far as internet blabla is concerned, who would waste their talking about this, if they've never seen a LnL board?

ORIGINAL: Magua
Look especially at the post with the comparison pics.

I just did it (again). And (could you admit that?), i prefer the left pic. [/quote]

That's fine. That's your personal preference. I have no argument with that.

ORIGINAL: Magua
In a sense, the use of the halos is a marketing gamble; a breaking of the paradigm. It is fixing something that ain't broke.

To me, it's also an artistic direction. A choice for a general look. Sometthing that LnL did good.[/quote]

It is. But it's also risky, as this column has demonstrated. Look at it this way. If there had never been halos, there would be no debate, and I imagine the nature of the hex grid would not even be discussed. It would be, as you say, a non-subject. The question is, is it worth the gamble for the sake of a trademark. I don't know.

About the "Pepsi Challenge" : if designing a game was a matter of referendum, i bet that there would be no more published games. I'm not new to wargames, but I'm quiet new to wargames forums. And i'm often stunned. Wargamers are weird customers. They always want something else that what they knew they bought. Or they always want something for free. Or they always know how to do better, about rules, about graphic design, about commercial politics etc.... I just wonder why they don't publish their own games . Etc etc etc. They always talk a lot.
But thanks gods, wargames have nothing to do with referendum...

I have a little experience. I worked for Talonsoft for several years. I designed scenarios and linked campaigns for East Front, West Front, Rising Sun, and all of their add-ons. I helped out on their forums. I playtested their games from the Battleground Series until the staff exodus just before Divided Ground. There were many more instances than I can remember where decisions were made based on a consensus from many people, both staff, and forum posters.

I'm not saying that everything gets decided this way -- probably not even half, but it does happen. I also don't think that Mark should do the Pepsi challenge. I was just posing a hypothetical.

Best,
Olivier

PS : I'm waiting you on the list my friend [;)]

And once again my friend you have soothed the savage beast in me. How do you do that? [:@][;)]

I really didn't want to get into this again. I really need to work on my self-control. At least it's not drugs, gambling, or alcohol.

Check out the la Fiere map sample I posted. It's got halos, though I have made them a bit more subtle, I think they do the job. And I kinda like them. (Did I say that out loud?!?!?)

[Pirke]

Nice to see you both are still friends [:D]

Anyway, I'm also not fond of the halo's and if offered a choice, halo or non-halo, I would prefer the later.

But reality is that for the boardgame we currently do not have a choice so I decided to shut up and live with it and currently also got used to it.

Nonetheless I hope the VASL version will offer the choice.

[markhwalker]

is a marketing gamble

Tom,

No it isn't, it was a concious decision I made that had nothing to do with the marketing of the game. I must admit, however, that if I knew it would create this much hoopla I would have made the decision even sooner.

Tom, your facts are not facts at all, but rather opinions. Here are facts: I just broke out my trusty ruler... not a micrometer mind you, just a ruler. I measured the hex grid with halo... it's about 1/32" of an inch. I measured the stone walls (for sake of argument), they are about 1/8" or 400% thicker! That's an obstruction to play? People can't see a gray wall that is 400% thicker than the line laid on top of it? Give me a break.

Then I pulled the 19 designed LnL maps... thats right, there are 19 in all. I can't find one, that's one, single, solitary hex where a dot obscures anything. Not one.

There are 50-some posts in this thread. I don't have time to page through them, but I estimate they are from 12 different posters. Of those twelve I also estimate that 5 are defending the hexlines and 7 are against. Of the seven against, 2 (count them... please count them) TWO folks have spent any appreciable time with the game. I'm not going to publish LnL sales figures here, but suffice to say that two folks is way less than one-one-thousanth of a percent. Bottom line... the halos are overwhelmingly endorsed by the folks who buy the game.

BTW Tom, you are a good guy and I appreciate all that you are doing for the game. I look forward to playing Brecourt Manoir.

Best,

Mark

[Magua]

ORIGINAL: markhwalker

is a marketing gamble

Tom,

No it isn't, it was a concious decision I made that had nothing to do with the marketing of the game. I must admit, however, that if I knew it would create this much hoopla I would have made the decision even sooner.

I wasn't clear. I certainly did not mean to suggest that you added halos as a gamble. The point I wanted to make was that whenever you tinker with a well established convention, you take a gamble.

Tom, your facts are not facts at all, but rather opinions. Here are facts: I just broke out my trusty ruler... not a micrometer mind you, just a ruler. I measured the hex grid with halo... it's about 1/32" of an inch. I measured the stone walls (for sake of argument), they are about 1/8" or 400% thicker! That's an obstruction to play? People can't see a gray wall that is 400% thicker than the line laid on top of it? Give me a break.

But they are facts amigo. The halos on the hexsides cover terrain art that would not be covered if they were not there. Dat's a fact. Whether I like them or not is an opinion. Now I did some measuring too. I measured the walled hexside between 13D5 and 13E5. The wall is just about 3mm, and the haloed hexside is just about 2mm. This means that the haloed hexside covers about 1/3 or 67% of the wall art. With that much of the wall (or hedge) art covered up, it is difficult to see. At least that's the way it measures on the mapboards I received with my copy of the game. Bocage isn't a problem.

Then I pulled the 19 designed LnL maps... thats right, there are 19 in all. I can't find one, that's one, single, solitary hex where a dot obscures anything. Not one.

I agree. I don't think the dots obstruct anything. I would just like them better if they were smaller. (my opinion [;)])

There are 50-some posts in this thread. I don't have time to page through them, but I estimate they are from 12 different posters. Of those twelve I also estimate that 5 are defending the hexlines and 7 are against. Of the seven against, 2 (count them... please count them) TWO folks have spent any appreciable time with the game. I'm not going to publish LnL sales figures here, but suffice to say that two folks is way less than one-one-thousanth of a percent. Bottom line... the halos are overwhelmingly endorsed by the folks who buy the game.

I figured that since I brought this up I better put my money where my mouth is. So, I went back and did a count. I counted a total of 23 individual opinions. 15 did not like the halos. Six did. Two were noncommittal. Two of the six that liked the halos were on the LnL development team. If were were playing statistics hardball, they should be disqualified as they have a vested interest in the pole results. Yes, I completely agree with you that 23 is a very small number compared to sales overall. But it is still an indication, albeit small, of how people feel.

I know you place a lot of value in the LnL players with longevity, and certainly, noone knows the game (save yourself) as well as they do. However, many of us here have many years and very broad experience with hex-based wargames. Heck, I bought Avalon Hill's D-Day when it first came out in '61 (was it '61? Yikes!). Some of us even have professional experience in the industry. Some of us just might know something about what we're talking about when it comes to graphics conventions.

BTW Tom, you are a good guy and I appreciate all that you are doing for the game. I look forward to playing Brecourt Manoir.

Best,

Mark

Ouch. Geez Mark. You sure know how to hurt a guy [;)] Hey, I have no misconceptions about myself. I can be a colossal pain in the butt when I get onto something. It's my curse, and I'm sorry for that. I'm glad you like some of the stuff I've posted. I love your game, no question about that. Otherwise I wouldn't be such a pain-in-the-butt. I hope you like Brecourt, but more important I look forward to your feedback. I've got a number of other scenarios I'd like to work-up and post, but I want them to be absolutely faithful to the spirit of this game. So your comments are crucial.

That said you might have noticed that the latest Brecourt map, as well as the la Fiere map have haloed hexsides. After all of this discussion, I think they work well, especially on maps that have a lot of contrast, which my maps do. I did tone the halos down a bit though.

Anyhow, I really, really want to bury the hatchet on this discussion. The halos are your trademark. They stay, and that's all I need to know. Case closed.

Let's get back to work/play.

[mbtanker]

<<< MBT... how many scenarios have you played with BoH?>>>

Managed to get my first one in last weekend and hope to play tomorrow. But I've played LnL a fair bit that has the same halo hexes. I don't think they have a huge impact on playability; I just don't like them aesthetically. But if you're taking votes...

Maybe try one of those 'pre-pub' deals? Offer non-halo maps and see if you get enough folks to sign-up. If so print them, if not end of discussion.

Oh and since we're talking maps I'd love to see Matrix offer some historical map/scenario expansions. Adding new counters where needed would be nice as well.