Romania's national characteristics are unrealistic

[Mac67]

I believe the myth of the Polish cavalry charge against panzers was started by a scene shown in the Polish movie Lotna in 1959. The movie centres around a Polish cavalry squadron and a cursed horse, the "Lotna" of the title. The movie aroused a lot of debate and objections due to the scene where the Poles charge the panzers, as it was claimed that the director was being unfaithful to the truth. For details see http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroo ... lotna.html

[Gunter_Viezenz]

This is what happened. The Polish army was retrearing and the Calvary was sent to slow down german infantry. After the Polish slowed down the infantry the Polish army got further away. the next day Italian reports came and seen polish calvary and German tanks which came thta morning coming ot the conclusoon that the Poles charged German Panzers. It was than used a propoganda both by Germans and Russians hence the Polish army didnt have large amounts of their officers in their army.
 
 
Just read this bloody book
Steven J Zaloga (1982). Polish Army, 1939-1945, 9-10, Osprey Publishing.

[Gunter_Viezenz]

Or you can go to wikipedia for a difference story but similair. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_cavalry#Cavalry_Charges_and_Propaganda.

[Mac67]

Did some more digging around on the net and found out this :- Apparently the myth of the calvary charge was started by Italian correspondents on the Pomeranian front, following the events of a sabre charge by the Polish Cavalry against a German Infantry Battalion. The charge was completly sucessful, but as the Cavalry troops were re-forming, a few German armoured cars equipped with automatic 20mm cannon and machine guns happened on the scene and immediately began firing. The Poles were completely exposed, and began to gallop for cover behind a nearby hillock. The commander and his immediate staff were all killed, and the losses were terrible. The grim evidence of this encounter was discovered the following day by Italian war correspondents, who were told by German soldiers that it resulted from the cavalry having charged tanks and so the legend began. The report by the Italians was later used as propaganda by the Germans. Details here - http://www.shotinthedark.info/archives/006381.html[/align] [/align]It would explain why the scene in Lotna was so controversial to the Poles. So there you go, mystery solved! Do i get a scoobie snack?[:D][/align]

[Mac67]

Damn, Gunter beat me too it! No scoobie snack for me [&:]

[azraelck]

*Tosses scooby snack to all who replied with links*

Thanks, it still seems odd that the Germans would have extolled a fake charge against tanks in their propoganda; to me that would just indicate an inordinate amount of courage and tenacity in the ranks of the Polish Lancers. Regardless, use of such an outdated tactic, with equally outdated weaponry, in the face of a modern army required just as much courage to undertake.

thanks for the links, it's good to see that there are those who can back up their statements with proof.

[Korpraali V]

ORIGINAL: azraelck
Thanks, it still seems odd that the Germans would have extolled a fake charge against tanks in their propoganda; to me that would just indicate an inordinate amount of courage and tenacity in the ranks of the Polish Lancers. Regardless, use of such an outdated tactic, with equally outdated weaponry, in the face of a modern army required just as much courage to undertake.

I see it very clever use of propaganda. Purposes:

-Polish are extremely brave soldiers + we won = We are even braver!
-Polish have horses + we have tanks = We are simply the best, better than all the rest, better than anyone!

Yes, the logical thing would be to think that a cavalry charging against tanks is braver than croup of tanks. But human won't act logically.

When you hear that hopeless attempt, you'll have to admire the enemy. And later on, when you'll hear their surrender, you'll see your boys on a parade even shinier and the most admirable creatures ever.

Same works in football. It's not wise to blackmail the opponent before the match. No glory on winning the losers. But when you praise your second-class opponent before the match, you'll get at least some glory by winning them. Propaganda.

[soldier]

I agree, Its actually a clever use of propaganda to emphasize the power of their tanks to the rest of the world. I think sometimes photos of destroyed Polish positions were acredited to the panzers when it actually looks more like German artillery was the real culprit. This is just a theory though.
It is interesting that the conquests of the blitzkrieg era were carried out by Pz 1's and 2's and "borrowed" czech tanks when the allies actually had heavier machines at their disposal.

[Gunter_Viezenz]

The Soviets used the propoganda as a reason to limit Polish officers in the Polish army, or so claim my family members that servered in the Polish army after WWII.

[Major Destruction]

ORIGINAL: azraelck

Seems to me, for both Romania and Poland as well (I have a book, written by the 4th Panzer Army's Chief Staff Officer, ....... In it, he even mentions Polish Calvary assaulting tanks with drawn sabers)

Was this claimed to have occured on September 3rd, north of Schwetz and west of Graudenz; an attack by the Pomorska Cavalry Brigade?

[azraelck]

While I've not the book in front of me, (and I'm well into the Battle of Kursk at the moment anyways), I do not believe he even mentions a time, place, or any unit designations; outside of a brief mention of calvary with drawn sabers charging Panzers of his force. As it was in the chapter dealing with the Polish Campaign; one would naturally assume that it was a Polish formation.

[Orzel Bialy]

Was this claimed to have occured on September 3rd, north of Schwetz and west of Graudenz; an attack by the Pomorska Cavalry Brigade?

My primary source ( Steven Zaloga's "The Polish Campaign 1939" ) does not state specifically which day in writing...but the section the charge is referred to has mainly to do with the battles taking place on Sept 1.

In the book it states:
...The Poles were unaware that the Brda had been crossed. In the early evening, an incident occurred which has shaped the popular image of the September Campaign more than any other. The 18th Lancer Regiment and a company of tankettes of the 81st Armored Troop were holding the northernmost Polish positions near Chojnice while the remainder of the Pomorska Cavalry Brigade withdrew southward from Brusy. Day long fighting with the German 20th Motorized Division had caused severe losses, but attempts by the regimental commander to obtain permission to withdraw to more favorable defensive positions across the Brda were denied. In the late afternoon, the regimental commander, Colonel Kazimierz Mastelarz, decided to mount half his force, amounting to two depleted line squadrons, and attempt to swing around the German infantry positions and hit them from the rear. None of the tankettes were taken as they were in poor mechanical shape. Around 1900, the two squadrons located a German infantry battalion in a forest clearing. Having the advantage of surprise, Mastelarz decided on a mounted saber charge. Galloping out of the forest, the squadrons wiped out the German formation, but in the meantime, several armored cars happened on the scene and began opening fire on the mounted troops with automatic cannon fire. About 20 troopers, including the regimental commander, were killed before the squadrons could withdraw behind a nearby hillock. Italian war correspondents who visited the scene the following day were told that the troopers had been killed while charging tanks. The story, more embellished with every telling, became a continual source of German propoganda."

Additional reading about the mythical charge against tanks can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Krojanty and here: http://www.panzerworld.net/fallweiss.html and here: http://www.panzerworld.net/fallweiss.html

[Gunter_Viezenz]

That does not state once a charge on panzers or any armour of the Germans.

[azraelck]

The point being that such a charge didn't occur. A charge against infantry formations did occur, with German Panzers attacking afterwards before the calvary could reform. 

[m10bob]

look here guys:

http://www.panzerworld.net/fallweiss.html
http://www.answers.com/topic/battle-of-krojanty
http://www.answers.com/topic/polish-cavalry
http://info-poland.buffalo.edu/classroo ... inski.html
http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Polish_cavalry
http://www.cavhooah.com/polish.htm
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/ar ... -2451.html
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/?qid=1006051913226
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -lasts.htm

[Whitmire]

(In Isthmus of Karelia - Soviet main offensive - Soviets had 300-400 artillery pieces per frontline kilometer, in Stalingrad they had 200 pieces. The barrage was hardest so far in military history, and still the first assaults were stopped with thin line of defence - three Divisions and one Brigade. The break happened next day when three Guards Divisions attacked against one Regiment.)

When the battle of Tali-Ihantala started, the Soviets had 10 pieces of artillery per 100 meters of the Karelian Isthmus. That's one piece per 10 meters! Finnish artillery was outmatched 20:1, and the Soviets had total air superiority with 400 bombers and 600 fighters. But still the Finns won a decisive victory, and it's said that the battle was won with artillery (yeah, the artillery that was outmatched 20:1)... That's just unbelievable.

If you know anything about the battles on the Isthmus, you can hardly say that there was no concentration of fighting on the Northern Front! As to the length of the frontline to be held, the Finns had over a thousand kilometers, three or four times the 438 kilometers... Don't forget that Finland is bigger than modern Germany, yet has a population of only 5,000,000 people. So it was quite a stretch for such a small army.

[Puukkoo]

ORIGINAL: Whitmire

(In Isthmus of Karelia - Soviet main offensive - Soviets had 300-400 artillery pieces per frontline kilometer, in Stalingrad they had 200 pieces. The barrage was hardest so far in military history, and still the first assaults were stopped with thin line of defence - three Divisions and one Brigade. The break happened next day when three Guards Divisions attacked against one Regiment.)

When the battle of Tali-Ihantala started, the Soviets had 10 pieces of artillery per 100 meters of the Karelian Isthmus. That's one piece per 10 meters! Finnish artillery was outmatched 20:1, and the Soviets had total air superiority with 400 bombers and 600 fighters. But still the Finns won a decisive victory, and it's said that the battle was won with artillery (yeah, the artillery that was outmatched 20:1)... That's just unbelievable.

If you know anything about the battles on the Isthmus, you can hardly say that there was no concentration of fighting on the Northern Front! As to the length of the frontline to be held, the Finns had over a thousand kilometers, three or four times the 438 kilometers... Don't forget that Finland is bigger than modern Germany, yet has a population of only 5,000,000 people. So it was quite a stretch for such a small army.

Hmmh... Sounds a bit too glorious. Russians did remove some of their forces from the Isthmus when they had taken Viipuri.

[Whitmire]

Those statistics are not for the capture of Viipuri on June 20, but for the battle of Tali-Ihantala starting some six days later. Wikipedia repeats the same numbers almost to the word, but then it's just Wiki. You may dispute the sources as much you like, after all this is what history is about, but don't forget that all sources are open to debate - including those concerning Romania cited here.

[Riun T]

WOW, I can't believe it, A thread has past some useful information,been a wounderful debate,had more than 3 members involved with more than 3 replys that have'nt showed any biases or personal remarks or been monopolized by unrelated reteric or blasphomy....!!!!! CAN"T SAY I MISS TBT !!!![:'(] RIO TANGO OUT!!

[Gunter_Viezenz]

Oh in that case you can give us all scooby snacks.[:'(]