Heavyweight bout: Yamato vs. New Jersy

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Sigh...[8|] I've done it, and it came up about even. Both ships spanked the other hard, and both were combat ineffective at the end, but neither was sunk.

The NJ was significantly faster, allowing her to control the range of the engagement, so she was unlikely to lose. Whether she could win was another issue. The NJ's maximum rate of fire was about 50% higher in the beginning and was sustainable for longer. On the other hand, the Yamato's AP shells were about 20% more destructive and had slightly greater penetration, and she had heavier armor. Their hulls were equal (i.e., within 1% of each other) in wetted area--which is the best predictor of warship survivability against *penetrating* AP rounds. Barring an accident, it would have been a draw.

[captskillet]

I'm gonna try and set it up using Warship Combat from the NWS website........let you know later if I am successful.

[siRkid]

[font="times new roman"]The tutorial scenario was set up so people could do things like this. All ships start in port and aircraft grounded to make setting up a match easy.  I don't know if those two ships are in the tutorial scenario but if they are you could setup and run in just a few minutes.[/font]

[siRkid]

What I think would be fun is to put evey ship and sub from both sides in the same hex and run the turn.[X(]

[RevRick]

One of the first things to go, by and large, in Action Stations when a ship starts taking heavy hits, is the radar. This is not unbelievable because the wave guides are very susceptible to damage when heavy explosions are taking place and whipping the ship. I think Zimm had them conk out too much, but it's not outside the realm of possibility. The other thing which happened a lot was fire control would be shifted from forward main to aft main, and sometimes to secondary battery control.

Secondly, there is no way that the USN battle line steams circles around that group of ships. Nagatos speed has been under reported for years according to at least one book I have, which means that the slowest ship in the IJN line would be doing around 26-27 kts, probably 25 at battle speed. The entire North Caroline and South Dakota class had a max speed of 28 kts, and usually never got much above 26. That means that if they meant to hold the line formation, they would have been limited to at best a two kt speed advantage over the Kurita's force, depending in the condition of the bottom, boilers, and turbines.

[Iridium]

I'll just point out that Japanese (Yamato's) optics were better than US standards. Also, radar targeting wasn't exactly perfected by this time. From what I've read I've always gotten the impression that radar gunnery was better than US optics at night but during the day they were somewhat pointless.

Could either ship sink the other? Yes. Would it be mostly luck? Yes.[:D]

[MkXIV]

Although I think We can all Agree that the New Jersey would win today [;)]

[Monter_Trismegistos]

ORIGINAL: MkXIV
Although I think We can all Agree that the New Jersey would win today [;)]

I doubt. Today New Jersey doesn't have any ASW weapons - Yamato today is under the waves [:D]

[Distiller]

in my case, NJ refused to fire most of the time and, predictably, got spanked, worst case so far 55 hits with no return fire, NJ sank immediately....

most balanced so far: Yamato 30/8/31 NJ 50/40/20 dmg points....


something's wrong here, japs alwys get surprise even in broad daylight, knock out radar, close to 2000yds and so on... must be my save i think (probability calculations very one sided or whatever)

[m10bob]

The New Jersey would win:

http://www.navweaps.com/index_tech/tech-052.htm

http://www.combinedfleet.com/b_fire.htm

[LittleJoe]

Just tested it myself in tutorial (should really be doing my turn, but couldnt resist)

The 'fight' lasted 3 rounds, with the Yamato gaining suprise over the New Jersey, which it what Distiller found as well i think.

But the Yamato got heavily defeated, the first combat was a close affair, with both ships 'on fire' and the Yamato taking 5 shells, and the NJ 4.

After the first day, it was obvious USN damage control would win the fight, with the Yamato suffring from 28 system damage, 22 flood and 29 fire damage, whilst the New Jersey, seemingly taking similar hits only had, 10 system 0 float and 7 fire damage.

Then on the second turn, the Yamato suprised (again) the New Jersey at night at 2000 yards, but got hit up badly, taking 10 shell hits, mostly from NJ 16 guns, with the Yamato failing to return fire.

The Yamato was on her last legs, 82 system, 71 float, 25 fire damage, but no day combat took place, as strangely it was the New Jersey that fled back to home port, Cowardly Americans!


Strange that on mine and Distillers tests the japs always got the suprise!

[RevRick]

AHA!! Yet another example of IJN bias in the game!!!!

I have noticed that two. I've had a squadron of AG's get the surprise on a squadron of PT boats all too often. Of course, this is also the game that puts Tanaka in command of AG's once in a while.

[Terminus]

Japanese fanboys everywhere...[8|]

[2ndACR]

Since I only play Japan, that is the way it is supposed to be.[;)]

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: LittleJoe
Strange that on mine and Distillers tests the japs always got the suprise!

There might be a "night suprise bonus" built into the system, as the Japanese were very good at it in the first year of the war. But by the time Yamato could fight New Jersey it should have "switched over" in reccognition of the US Radar superiority. Maybe 2x3 forgot to put in the "switch". Or maybe the Japanese were just lucky twice. I suspect the former, as it fits the overall pattern better.

[herwin]

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

ORIGINAL: LittleJoe
Strange that on mine and Distillers tests the japs always got the suprise!

There might be a "night suprise bonus" built into the system, as the Japanese were very good at it in the first year of the war. But by the time Yamato could fight New Jersey it should have "switched over" in reccognition of the US Radar superiority. Maybe 2x3 forgot to put in the "switch". Or maybe the Japanese were just lucky twice. I suspect the former, as it fits the overall pattern better.

Actually, I doubt the radar superiority would have held up very long. It's amazing how much shock damage can be done by a non-penetrating 1 ton+ shell hit. On the other hand, air spotting was a real show-stopper--that's the reason having a small carrier with your battleships was standard practice. If you had an aircraft aloft and the enemy didn't, you didn't need to worry about shock as much.

[Distiller]

 That's what all these Petes are for, spotting. too bad they can't be used in their intended role, isn't it?
 
 
anyway, after a few more test runs with different captains and admirals, only once did the Allies achieve surprise -at 28K yards nonetheless [:D], which resulted in another draw (sys dmg in the twenties, float 0 for NJ 2 for Yamato, minor fires).
 
 
conclusions from watching combat animations and checking ammo levels:
 
long range combat does not work, hits at 20k+ yards by both ships do not result in penetration, because they rarely hit the deck, ammo expenditure is very high, with very few (ineffective) hits achieved, so lack of ammo seems to end the engagement (forward magazines are usually empty after a single 1on1 battle). secondary battery scores many hits at absurd ranges (20k yds).
 
imho, night engagements are preferable for both sides if they want a deceisive battle, but they are also more random. main guns seem inaccurate, when they don't remain silent for most of the fight, they quickly run out of ammo. translation: BBs suck, i've seen CAs score hits left, right and center, even on smaller and nimble DDs, while the BBs slug it out with 5" guns, but that's hardly news is it??

[Mike Scholl]

ORIGINAL: herwin
Actually, I doubt the radar superiority would have held up very long. It's amazing how much shock damage can be done by a non-penetrating 1 ton+ shell hit. On the other hand, air spotting was a real show-stopper--that's the reason having a small carrier with your battleships was standard practice. If you had an aircraft aloft and the enemy didn't, you didn't need to worry about shock as much.

Actually, it's amazing how much "shock" damage can be caused by simply firing your own weapons when they reach BB calibres. One of the first major "reworkings" of the Yamato designs involved enclosing all the smaller AAA mounts in blast-proof shields to keep the main batteries from killing or injuring their crews in action. Both side's BB's were built with areal spotting A/C included. The US seems to have landed most of theirs as potential fire hazards when it became obvious that other means of spotting were available.

[panda124c]

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

"Yes, but everybody knows that New Jersey is nothing more than the "the greater Manhatten area", so it might as well be New York..."

Yeah, and south and southwest Florida are naught but boruoughs of NYC itself. It's starting to spread even up into the central Florida "hill" country these days. How are your local rednecks taking to that???

Being a Native FLA, we don't mind just so long as they go home in the summer and leave the money. [:D]

[Sardaukar]

How would be SoDak vs. Yamato ? They are at least comparable time-frame designs.