Price?

[Killjoy12]

I feel the need to post, not as a rant, but as information/feedback since it may be of some future use. I have purchased all three of the previous titles, but this price point puts it out of my reach. I enjoyed all of the previous titles, and each one was certainly an improvement over the others. While I expect this one to be better as well, its priced out of the range I'm willing to spend on a title, even one that I am familiar with (not needing a demo).

Instead, I purchased an old title - Commander: Europe at War, and am enjoying it quite a bit. Sure the AI is not fantastic, but its fun. And after years of patches and mods, it's a game that will provide me with hours of fun at about a 1/3 the cost. The irony on that purchase is that I bought it straight for the Slitherine site, as they were $15 cheaper than the Matrix site.

I wish no ill will on the developer or publisher; I just wanted to voice the opinion of someone who has purchased previous Panther titles, and would have bought this one as well. Its important to be able to track lost sales, and I was definitely one of them.

[Sheytan]

Wodin the CE is. Collectors Edition. The non CE boxed game plus digital download is 49.99 for Elemental. Which I will be buying I might add. Along with Vainglory of Nations. Both are reasonably priced AFAIK.

[V22 Osprey]

They haven't closed this thread yet?[:'(]

[IronDuke_slith]

I purchased, although I can appreciate everyone has their own price threshold, or gaming budget, and need to make their own decision. The editor stuff swung it, as I too was taken aback by the price. I'm guessing there is plenty of mileage in this title on the back of the editor stuff and decided to take the plunge.

I know nothing about Panther biographically, and wouldn't presume to tell anyone anything about business, save to very gently and respectfully suggest that if they want any sort of return on this sort of activity, then they need to reduce development time rather than get creative with pricing.

I have always gotten the impression that as a genre, this is one for the hobbyist who has a day job, develops in his spare time and does it for holiday money.

To crack this in any kind of way financially, you really need to release regularly (al a Tiller) or have mega brand recognition and the freedom to hit the really popular areas (al a 2by3). In either of these categories, after a few years, you get a back book to boot that helps fund the business.

I can appreciate the effort that goes into complex coding of this sort, and the obvious research and zealous attention to detail that has gone into the scenarios in this title, but we are a niche, these days, particularly at this level of grog, and this sort of pricing move can be a near impossible thing to get right if you start playing about with it. As one early post calculated, cheaper and more often generally trumps fewer, more expensive.

Still, none of my business. I am now off to play a scenario or two, stay up far longer than I should on a work night, and see if I can find that Panzer marching song from the movie that Robert Shaw made them all sing.

May I wish Panther every success with the game.

Regards,
ID

[Tophat1815]

 Its a vain attempt to limit the number of "it costs too much" threads.Other threads keep popping up anyway,but most seem to regress to this one for the prolonged squawk! I think its an expensive game to be sure,but you seem to get quite a bit with the purchase.Not to mention if this is the base for numerous expansions covering the rest of the west/Italian front from 1943-45' then its a jewel.I have to sort my ATI card issue out and just buy this game.

In regards to price,how many years has Arjuna put into the development of this game? How much effort let alone what sacrifices had to be made along the way? Some people have just come-off sounding like the price of this game was a direct slight or insult done to them personally.Opinions are like orifices,everybody has one,this last was mine.Now in the spirit of this thread feel free to attack me for being the manners police,thought police,body snatchers,hit squad,intolerant moderator or local IRS representative.[:'(]

[Kabbers]

For me at least, I've accepted that this is a slightly more price-intensive hobby, and I'm willing to invest in the things I choose as depth-first hobbies. So on my side, the price is not the issue, so much as whether my own level of personal investment is able to match the entry price.

In my view, there's nothing worse, than overinvesting in something that I do not, cannot, or end up not, then matching with my own personal investment. Then I've short changed myself. So the price is an invitation to invest is my own view, and I'm happy now (if that's any use).

much happiness to you,
xKabbers

[Knavery]

The price for this game is out of this world, which would normally upset me if I was interested. However, I've changed my tune a bit since I started playing wargames. For some that really understand and love the engine, they may get several hundred hours of enjoyment out of it. This would include grognards, or folks very versed in wargaming in general.

However, for passerbys, the price is too much. I fall into that category. Having little to no experience with wargaming, and having a very difficult time getting into it for various reasons, I don't fit into the category of grognard. The game, and the price of the game, is not aimed at casual gamers. It's aimed at wargamers that will get a hundred bucks out of it and then some.

I actually appreciate the fact that the price is a deterent for me personally. Should I spend 50 or 100 dollars, it would probably just sit on a shelf anyway. Perhaps it's a blessing in disguise, but I could justify 50 bucks a lot quicker than 100.

I just hope they can make money from those gamers out there that love the series. It certainly has a beatiful engine.

[Rocko911]

I hope this is not the direction Matrix (who I have bought many many games from is going in the future) is this a result of the Slitherine merger? Also how come this is so much more than the previous versions of this series? Lets be honest spending $80 for a digital download is nuts. Also spending $90 for a physical version without a 8.5 x 11 fully colored manual in a hardbound edition would be equally as nuts. The fact is if you are asking us to pay such a large increase then the game along with printed materials better also increase on quality.

[jomni]

ORIGINAL: LRRP

I hope this is not the direction Matrix (who I have bought many many games from is going in the future) is this a result of the Slitherine merger? Also how come this is so much more than the previous versions of this series? Lets be honest spending $80 for a digital download is nuts. Also spending $90 for a physical version without a 8.5 x 11 fully colored manual in a hardbound edition would be equally as nuts. The fact is if you are asking us to pay such a large increase then the game along with printed materials better also increase on quality.

Don't think so. Slitherine games are still affordable.
With regards to quality, I'm pretty sure that there are improvements. I am just not sure as I don't have the game at the moment to compare. Waiting for the demo to know for sure.

[budd]

ORIGINAL: Knavery

The price for this game is out of this world, which would normally upset me if I was interested. However, I've changed my tune a bit since I started playing wargames. For some that really understand and love the engine, they may get several hundred hours of enjoyment out of it. This would include grognards, or folks very versed in wargaming in general.

However, for passerbys, the price is too much. I fall into that category. Having little to no experience with wargaming, and having a very difficult time getting into it for various reasons, I don't fit into the category of grognard. The game, and the price of the game, is not aimed at casual gamers. It's aimed at wargamers that will get a hundred bucks out of it and then some.

I actually appreciate the fact that the price is a deterent for me personally. Should I spend 50 or 100 dollars, it would probably just sit on a shelf anyway. Perhaps it's a blessing in disguise, but I could justify 50 bucks a lot quicker than 100.

I just hope they can make money from those gamers out there that love the series. It certainly has a beatiful engine.

I do agree that the price was a bit of a shock, but after some thought on the subject i changed my tune and will be purchasing it if my machine can run it. I have been wargaming for years but am in no way a grognard, i just like playing. I think no matter what the price [except of course basement pricing] are niche market will never attract casual gamers, not to say we can't attract new players, but these games do require some time investment to learn how to get the most fun out of them, there's not much instant gratification in these games that at least i associate with casual gamers. Myself, I just am aiming not buy anymore shelf sitting games this year[bought 8 matrix games last year, 6 are on the shelf, untouched] so that's how i am justifying it[:D] plus i love the engine. I am wondering if you've played any of the series and if your going to try the demo? If you do the demo and it strikes a chord with you, will you feel differently about the price? For some people it just doens't hit a chord with especially the first time playing, not much you can do with those people, it just doesn't work for them. Hope you try the demo and it strikes a chord with you and you hop on board[:)]
budd

[Erik Rutins]

ORIGINAL: LRRP
I hope this is not the direction Matrix (who I have bought many many games from is going in the future) is this a result of the Slitherine merger? Also how come this is so much more than the previous versions of this series? Lets be honest spending $80 for a digital download is nuts. Also spending $90 for a physical version without a 8.5 x 11 fully colored manual in a hardbound edition would be equally as nuts. The fact is if you are asking us to pay such a large increase then the game along with printed materials better also increase on quality.

I'd like to encourage everyone who posts here to read the earlier parts of the thread as well, where we and Panther posted pretty extensive responses regarding these questions.

Regards,

- Erik

[TargAK]

I wish Matrix and Panther Games well and I hope you sell lot's of copies as it looks to be a great game.

Sadly it is more than I am willing to pay for a game and will have to pass. $60.00 is my upper limit of value for any game and I will pass. If it is the way of things going into the future than I will find other interests to pass my time.

[wodin]

It does make me upset seeing so many who would have bought passing it up. To say I'm worried about the sales and future development is an understatement. Especially when we were told that for the future of the series it had to sell well.

[daft]

ORIGINAL: wodin

It does make me upset seeing so many who would have bought passing it up. To say I'm worried about the sales and future development is an understatement. Especially when we were told that for the future of the series it had to sell well.

Obviously, more sales are better, but if they can make more money from fewer customers I'd say that constitutes "selling well" in their eyes. If they wanted more volume in their sales, they would have lowered their price. I think they calculated with a slight drop-off in either existing buyers or first time buyers of the series, and hiked up the price with that taken into account. We'll see I guess, but for some reason I doubt that Dave will toss this engine completely aside even if the sales aren't as good as they had hoped.

[htuna]

ORIGINAL: daft

ORIGINAL: wodin

It does make me upset seeing so many who would have bought passing it up. To say I'm worried about the sales and future development is an understatement. Especially when we were told that for the future of the series it had to sell well.

Obviously, more sales are better, but if they can make more money from fewer customers I'd say that constitutes "selling well" in their eyes. If they wanted more volume in their sales, they would have lowered their price. I think they calculated with a slight drop-off in either existing buyers or first time buyers of the series, and hiked up the price with that taken into account. We'll see I guess, but for some reason I doubt that Dave will toss this engine completely aside even if the sales aren't as good as they had hoped.

With all the Great Reviews. .they are definitely grabbing more of the 'forum' holdouts... but still doesn't help them with the 'casual store visitors' i.e. non Forum readers..

[Redmarkus5]

but still doesn't help them with the 'casual store visitors' i.e. non Forum readers..

I would guess that non-Forum readers form the vast majority of store visitors.

[Capt Cliff]

The price of this game is way too much for a single campaign with 27 battles. $80 US for digital and $90 for hard copy!!! [:-]
 
Well I guess we'll see if it's worth the price but me I shall pass on it, and I am a Bulge fanatic!! Someone in Matrix needs to start doing cost trade analysis and buget modelling on these games. Even $75 for WitP was too much for me but come to think of it considering the depth and expanse of that game $75 might be ballback, high and inside but ballpark. Now way will I pay $90 for a Bulge game especially if it's like the Market Garden version.

[wodin]

ORIGINAL: daft

ORIGINAL: wodin

It does make me upset seeing so many who would have bought passing it up. To say I'm worried about the sales and future development is an understatement. Especially when we were told that for the future of the series it had to sell well.

Obviously, more sales are better, but if they can make more money from fewer customers I'd say that constitutes "selling well" in their eyes. If they wanted more volume in their sales, they would have lowered their price. I think they calculated with a slight drop-off in either existing buyers or first time buyers of the series, and hiked up the price with that taken into account. We'll see I guess, but for some reason I doubt that Dave will toss this engine completely aside even if the sales aren't as good as they had hoped.

Its not a case of throwing the engine aside but a case of if its financailly viable...and if the sales say it isn't then Dave will have to do more military work I expect...Panther Games is a Business first and foremost...not a hobbyist doing it for the love in his spare time.

If they loose just a 1/3rd of the sales due to the price then it was a bad call as the extra money just wasn't worth it....and being a niche game with a small market audience surely every sale counts...

[hondo1375]

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff
Someone in Matrix needs to start doing cost trade analysis and buget modelling on these games.

We need to be fair to Matrix here, as we don't know they haven't done some price elasticity of demand modelling. I'm assuming that they believe the demand at this price point will bring in more aggregate gross margin for this game than it would at the COTA price point. It's just unfortunate for the people who want the game but won't stretch to the price point. If Matrix have got it wrong, I expect they'll have to discount it at some point (although that won't be an easy PR message to deliver to existing purchasers).

[Arnir]

Ironically, when a new title comes out in a series that I don't have the latest and greatest of I tend to buy the older release in the series.  So for me, this release made me think about buying CotA until I saw that its price had gone up as well.  Maybe someday from NWS but I just can't rationalize paying more for an older game to support a new game that I can't see buying at its high price.

I do think that Matrix and Panther are doing what they feel is best and have solid reasons for what they are doing.  I might disagree with them, but I won't tell them how to play their game.  (all puns included.)