The Power of Inexperience / GreyJoy(A)-Rader(J)

[soticrandy]

One hairy situation GreyJoy and Rader have gotten into.


Edit: Outstanding deception, definitely a grey area when it comes to gamey play.

[Grfin Zeppelin]

ORIGINAL: soticrandy

One hairy situation GreyJoy and Rader have gotten into.

And so bony.

[crsutton]

Posted on Radars AAR as well.

Hmmmm. Well you two are both pretty considerate of the other's opinion. That is what makes this a great fight. However, you can't be just a little bit pregnant. A CAP trap is a CAP trap and you both have used them in the past. (and we all pretty much use them) It is pretty hard to determine which would be OK and which would not. You and GJ have to decide to either allow them or not. Simple as that. Any other course would just lead to misunderstandings and regret. And if they are allowed then his trap in this case was legit. Not because it was fair but because the precedent has already been set. My two cents.

[Cribtop]

GJ,

Due to the uniquely interesting situation in this game I have taken to reading both AARs, which is why have have stopped posting substantive advice over the past few days. However, I did read the posts CR referred to about your e-mails with Rader. First, I compliment you both on a reasoned exchange without vitriol (sorry, I'm a little behind on my big words for this month [:D]). Second, one point even Rader conceded in that exchange was that the USN made use IRL of operations like this designed to bait the IJ air forces to destruction in advance of the real invasions. This alone makes it tough IMHO to call your action gamey. I will admit that given the lack of player control over strike targets (other than range, which in this case is moot as it was in his base hex) there could be problems with overuse of this tactic, especially in the context of 2 day turns. However, on balance I have to rule "not gamey."

[ADB123]

I know he ate it becuase Aikita, Ominato, Aomori and Hachinoe were suddenly crowded with empty barges and midget subs...

Hmmm - that's a "funny" way to prepare a defence...

Empty barges, eh?

... [:-]

At least if they were MTBs or something else PT-like it might be a bit more understandable...

[JohnDillworth]

Hmmm - that's a "funny" way to prepare a defence...

Empty barges, eh?

Thats a thought. Why the empty barges? Was this to soak up airstrikes or surface attacks? Now that does sound gamey

[JeffroK]

I think you will find you cant win the arguements here.

One suggestion was to be able to set Nav Attack to only attack certain types of TF.
Firstly your TF would need to be spotted which apparently it wasnt.
Then the Recce pilots would have to correctly ID the ships, and have complaints that there were BB or CVE in your feint.
Then complaints would come out about "my bombers dont sortie"

I think the closeness of forces here makes it very hard for rader to counter, there just isnt time to spot and react properly. If you tried this based in the Marianas or Phillipines he could see you coming and prepare properly.

But thats part of the cost of not finishing you off in India and getting stuck in the Solomons, and most recently not ensuring a complete Recce coverage of your forces.

And I second ABD123's question about barges, used to soak off ammo???
Matbe rader should look at his own abusing off the game engine!

Keep bashing away, 5000 aircraft at Tokyo might be a tempting target??

[JohnDillworth]

And I second ABD123's question about barges, used to soak off ammo???
Matbe rader should look at his own abusing off the game engine!

agree 100% gamey, pure and simple

[jeffk3510]

Rader took the bait...hes upset...thats all there is to it.

[JohnDillworth]

Rader took the bait...hes upset...thats all there is to it.

Like I said, Inchon, precedent, barges flooding a landing zone? gamey. As recently as Desert Storm the Marine 13th EF made an amphibious feint to draw Iraqi forces. Guess Sadam forgot the barges there.

[terje439]

Have to agree with ppl here, the empty barges placed there were likely ment to soak up aerial attacks, surface attacks and slow you down, that is more gamey in my eyes than what you did.

Terje

[Braedonnal]

You know how I feel GJ.  Pickets are fine by me.  Hell, park one DD out there with a couple support ships.  I mean, wasn't that the general composition of the Okinawa picket groups?  You'll hear cries of "No commander would waste all those aircraft after those targets."  No commander would have any real control over it.  Put a suicidal zealot in a cockpit and he'd generally dive on the first and largest target he found.  That's why picket group destroyers suffered so much.

[JohnDillworth]

Have to agree with ppl here, the empty barges placed there were likely ment to soak up aerial attacks, surface attacks and slow you down, that is more gamey in my eyes than what you did.

So GJ sent empty ships and Rader defended with empty ships and makes a complaint? I think the 600 airplane penalty is about right.

[pws1225]

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

So GJ sent empty ships and Rader defended with empty ships ...

Well now, that just about sums it all up. Case closed.

[Crackaces]

ORIGINAL: Braedonnal

You know how I feel GJ.  Pickets are fine by me.  Hell, park one DD out there with a couple support ships.  I mean, wasn't that the general composition of the Okinawa picket groups?  You'll hear cries of "No commander would waste all those aircraft after those targets."  No commander would have any real control over it.  Put a suicidal zealot in a cockpit and he'd generally dive on the first and largest target he found.  That's why picket group destroyers suffered so much.

Actually .. at least according to the British speaking guy in WWII in Color .. the Pickets were targeted because they were alerting the raids .. the first waves of raids at Oki met with much CAP ..so they Kami's drank thier saki and went after the early warning pickets with the thought the follow on raids would penatrate .. but that was not the first thoughts ..the Japanese dudes on World at War seem to support this as I recall ..

By ths same source it would seem that more than 1 ship per 46 miles was comitted since in the scene portrayed I see at least 4 within 2K yards or so ..[8D]

I am really trying to put this all in perspective but I rather think Rader got his hand caught in the cookie jar ...[;)]

[GreyJoy]

Guys...i'm gratefull for the fact that you keep on supporting me...but...please...i really don't want that this is transformed into a pubblic bias on Rader.
He (Andrew) is a friend and a wonderfull and educated person. I really learnt to love (in a "non-homo" meaning of the word) this canadian guy!
I really think he has a point. He's just saying that, if exploited and used on a regular basis, this "tactic" could really game the game-mechanics...and he's right i think.
On this particular case however i think this was an OPERATION...not a "tactic"...an Operation in its full litterarly meaning.
I've worked hard to arrive here...several weeks of studying his routines and on setting up the good feint... so i feel i was well inside the limit.
 
However, to solve the problem we agreed on a new HR: "Naval CAP TRAPs must use as bait TFs composed at least of platforms with 180 planes (so to say 2 CVs or 5CVEs)"...so if you wanna do it you have to run the risk of losing valuable assets.
 
And i was exagerating....Rader only set up 2 big empty barges TFs that were sunk by my PTs...not hundreds of them...so the term "overcrowded" is way beyond the reality.
 
 
Now the turn has arrived...let's take a look[:D]
 
Again...one last time...believe me: Rader is a good one

[Braedonnal]

ORIGINAL: Crackaces

Actually .. at least according to the British speaking guy in WWII in Color .. the Pickets were targeted because they were alerting the raids .. the first waves of raids at Oki met with much CAP ..so they Kami's drank thier saki and went after the early warning pickets with the thought the follow on raids would penatrate .. but that was not the first thoughts ..the Japanese dudes on World at War seem to support this as I recall ..

By ths same source it would seem that more than 1 ship per 46 miles was comitted since in the scene portrayed I see at least 4 within 2K yards or so ..[8D]

I am really trying to put this all in perspective but I rather think Rader got his hand caught in the cookie jar ...[;)]

Silly WWII in Color! I'll go with what Vice Admiral Turner said in 1947.

One of the things that was very fortunate for the transports and the troops was that the Japanese suicide airplanes, as soon as they began to be attacked by our outlying fighters, would themselves deliver attacks on our pickets instead of trying to penetrate our screen to attack the transports. It was tough on the pickets, but the Japanese themselves thus contributed to the successful defense of the vulnerable elements of the Amphibious Force.

And you are right about the number of ships in a general picket group, in 1945, they started with a DD with a couple LCS(L) but after heavier attacks had two or three DDs with additional LCS(L). The DD's took the brunt of the hits as they were larger targets than the supporting ships.

Anyways. Gamey barges, gamey army telephone poles in China and India and gamey overland marching deserves a good CAP trap, gamey or not.[;)]

[GreyJoy]

. lots of new aces

The 75th RAAF squadron got 13 kills today[:)]...Go aussies!!!

[jeffk3510]

Im sure he is a good guy GJ....just seems like whenever something doesnt go his way he asks for a HR and or a beta change....thats my observation....he got caught with his pants down. You did NOTHING wrong

[paullus99]

I would agree - it wouldn't be the first time. You play with fire & you're going to get burned.