Well we didn't wear white hats, particularily in the Pacific. Bergerud commented on how the racial and no-quarter aspect of the war, a tone set by the Japanese, quickly filtered to the Americans and Australians. Eye for an eye was alive and well. Its unfortunate but i won't stand on judgement rock. It was a brutal war. Its just unfortunate and my admiration goes to those who were able to step above it.
Nik I'm not saying that one side was more brutal than the other or that someone was wearing white hats. That's why it's "bad" and not bad.
ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
18in guns had AA ammo - look for Sen Shiki or San Shiki on Google and should be able to find something. Both Yamato and Musashi fired San Shiki in their final moments - rather inefficiently. To add insult to the injury - Musashi never fired anything else BUT Sen Shiki in combat from her main guns, never firing on another warship, ever.
O.
These rounds were another of those "looked good on paper" ideas. Basically the shell was an expanded version of a "shrapnel shell" from the First World War. Instead of spraying shrapnel balls down on the troops when it detonated, it was supposed to spray them out at incoming aircraft. Problem was the fuze timing had to me "dead on perfect" between two moving objects (the shell and the aircraft) - and it was almost impossible to make it happen. Had they had a proximity fuse, these might have been worthwhile.
Strafing a ship to suppress the AA so that the bombers could get their licks in was a fairly common tactic. The British use to divide their Beaufighter squadrons up into Torpedo, Bomb, and AA suppression sections, as the A/C finished their bomb/torpedo run they went over to AA suppression.
Showing the close up of the AA crews getting slaughtered by the strafing is much the same as the American landing in "Saving Private Ryan" the emotional impact is the important part. It's not a John Wayne movie with good and evil clearly defined.
Oh yea, some one ask what the deal was with the two wounded sailor tossing the third over the rail. I don't understand a word of what was said, but this look like the typical "we are already dead you must go on and save youself for the future, don't let people forget" movie ploy (I not judging this action just defining it).
Looks to be a very good movie, are those Korean subtitles????
You say that as if they raped every German woman they could catch. There were major accurences when the local front command would let the soldiers have a "free day" when they captured a major city, but these things were not universal by any stretch. Under normal circumstances, the Red Army has a very strict way of dealing with acts it considered "marauding". I'm sure that these things happened of their own accord, soldiers being soldiers, and there being a feeling or retribution. But officially, these acts were punished very harshly. From 1944 onward, rape, looting and mistreatment of prisoners was the quickest way to find onself in a penal unit. By the same token, the rest of the allied armies also had high rates of such occurences, especially the French in Germany.
As for looting, thats a domain of the REMFs, as in every other army. The frontline soldiers contented themselves with taking goodies like watches and pocket knives off the POWs, which was fair game anyway.
Actually the Red Army had an official policy of encouraging looting, right down to posters asking soldiers if they had sent home their share of the spoils yet this month? Each serviceman was allowed (and encouraged to send) one 10 kg package per month back to his home. Joe Stalin's idea of a "Serviceman's Benifits Act". As to Rape, there was plenty on both sides, though again only the Red Army an "official policy" encouraging it. And after 3+years at the tender mercies of the Gestapo and the SS, it's hard to blame them too much. Russia suffered more dead than all the rest of the war's participants (excluding China) together. Doesn't make it right..., but it does help explain it.
You say that as if they raped every German woman they could catch. There were major accurences when the local front command would let the soldiers have a "free day" when they captured a major city, but these things were not universal by any stretch. Under normal circumstances, the Red Army has a very strict way of dealing with acts it considered "marauding". I'm sure that these things happened of their own accord, soldiers being soldiers, and there being a feeling or retribution. But officially, these acts were punished very harshly. From 1944 onward, rape, looting and mistreatment of prisoners was the quickest way to find onself in a penal unit. By the same token, the rest of the allied armies also had high rates of such occurences, especially the French in Germany.
As for looting, thats a domain of the REMFs, as in every other army. The frontline soldiers contented themselves with taking goodies like watches and pocket knives off the POWs, which was fair game anyway.
Actually the Red Army had an official policy of encouraging looting, right down to posters asking soldiers if they had sent home their share of the spoils yet this month? Each serviceman was allowed (and encouraged to send) one 10 kg package per month back to his home. Joe Stalin's idea of a "Serviceman's Benifits Act". As to Rape, there was plenty on both sides, though again only the Red Army an "official policy" encouraging it. And after 3+years at the tender mercies of the Gestapo and the SS, it's hard to blame them too much. Russia suffered more dead than all the rest of the war's participants (excluding China) together. Doesn't make it right..., but it does help explain it.
Well, I don't think that these kind of actions can be explained.
I can appreciate the quality of the movie, and the drama that it portrays (quite vividly). If anything, I think the "best" drama, was the how well it protrayed the tension before the attack. The saw the spotter aircraft. They new they had been spotted. They knew it was over. You have a short while to make sure sick-bay is ready, the guns are ready, and to get right with your ancestors.
Honestly, I felt no pity for the "slaughter" of the gunners. It was the mission of the Hellcats to "suppress" (ie kill them). It was the mission of the AAA gunner to kill the fighters and bombers.
Yes, there were many cases of "retribution" in WW2 (and every other war for that matter). It happens. I don't condone it. But it's not for me to judge. Actions like strafing survivors in the water, or pilots in parchutes, killing a soldier that surrenders, is lamentable. But it happens. It's not for me (esp as a civilian) to judge the circumstances. IMO, those situations should be tried by the appropriate military protocols (and -NOT- left to "trial by media" that we like to offer today).
"OMG! They just strafed the crew of that Destroyer! Prosecute them!"
What you didn't see was crew of that destroyer firing on the survivors of transport an hour before.
Those sort of judment calls are best left to the military. It has been my observation that they do much better job of "policing their own" that we do as civilians.
War is a nasty business. We try to leave it to those who are trained, and can stomach it. War is the lowest expression of who are as mankind. When war occurs, you can guarentee that heinous acts -will- be committed. While they should not be condoned, if you can't handle the fact that such acts -will- occur, then you should have found a diplomatic solution in the first place.
-F-
"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me
"From the point of view of a civilian in peacetime, what a soldier has to do to survive on the battlefield is insane. From the point of view of a soldier at war, peacetime civilian niceties are insane."
This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.
Hehe, this is why I was so glad to have been living in tokyo when the movie came out! I saw it in its second week[:'(]. I speak japanese pretty good, but the japanese in this movie is actually very hard. First of all: a lot of the main characters come from Hiroshima, so they speak in the Osaka dialect (i believe), which is different from standard tokyo japanese. That made it a little hard for me to understand. Also, when they're aboard the ship, they use many naval terms with which i am unfamiliar. It is one of my favourite japanese films of all time though. Dunno if itll come out in the US. I sent one of my chinese friends to try to find it, he can usually get these movies in Toronto where he has several asian contacts, but he was totally unable to get it. [:(] The movie's also been out for almost a year so...
"Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
-Gen. Joffre, before the battle of the Marne
If they machine-gunned the AA crews and nobody seems to deny this, then how is giving it extra drama that much worse?
Well, I never said it was "worse", inaccurate, or even bad film making. I merely said that I do not think that the director put it in the movie solely for accuracy. (Note: I have only seen the clips linked above. I cannot find a DvD to buy, and in any case, I will wait for one with English subtitles.)
Another poster stated that they felt that a lot of "strafing" attacks are shown. (Post #48) I took this as an impression the movie may leave with me as well, if I had seen it whole.
I considered it a dramatic plot device, primarilly intended to evoke a specific reaction/emotion from the viewers.
IOW you thought it was gratuitous, as though they were making the casualties look worse than we can reasonably expect they were, so as to evoke outrage or sympathy, correct? I was trying to say, that if they indeed did a good bit of strafing of the AA guns, then if that is a bad thing or even a good thing, how is it so much more worse for how they portrayed it? I felt a bit of sympathy for them myself, in fact it was quite a bit more moving than the Tora, Tora, Tora casualties, mainly I imagine because the means of making gore and excitement is so much better in film these days (no comment on acting). I didn't even understand them and I felt sorry for them, must have had a lot to do with the music and the attacks being seemingly endless. Then again I have some Japanese relatives so maybe that's a part of it.
Strafing a ship to suppress the AA so that the bombers could get their licks in was a fairly common tactic. The British use to divide their Beaufighter squadrons up into Torpedo, Bomb, and AA suppression sections, as the A/C finished their bomb/torpedo run they went over to AA suppression.
Showing the close up of the AA crews getting slaughtered by the strafing is much the same as the American landing in "Saving Private Ryan" the emotional impact is the important part. It's not a John Wayne movie with good and evil clearly defined.
Oh yea, some one ask what the deal was with the two wounded sailor tossing the third over the rail. I don't understand a word of what was said, but this look like the typical "we are already dead you must go on and save youself for the future, don't let people forget" movie ploy (I not judging this action just defining it).
Looks to be a very good movie, are those Korean subtitles????
That's an absolutely perfect analogy pbear! Comparing the AA crews to the impact of SPR, just perfect. You know something else? the fact that most of us couldn't understand them added to it the similarity, because I don't recall the SPR beginning having much talking or yelling you could understand the first time, as they were getting bombarded with the gunfire.
You say that as if they raped every German woman they could catch. There were major accurences when the local front command would let the soldiers have a "free day" when they captured a major city, but these things were not universal by any stretch. Under normal circumstances, the Red Army has a very strict way of dealing with acts it considered "marauding". I'm sure that these things happened of their own accord, soldiers being soldiers, and there being a feeling or retribution. But officially, these acts were punished very harshly. From 1944 onward, rape, looting and mistreatment of prisoners was the quickest way to find onself in a penal unit. By the same token, the rest of the allied armies also had high rates of such occurences, especially the French in Germany.
As for looting, thats a domain of the REMFs, as in every other army. The frontline soldiers contented themselves with taking goodies like watches and pocket knives off the POWs, which was fair game anyway.
Actually the Red Army had an official policy of encouraging looting, right down to posters asking soldiers if they had sent home their share of the spoils yet this month? Each serviceman was allowed (and encouraged to send) one 10 kg package per month back to his home. Joe Stalin's idea of a "Serviceman's Benifits Act". As to Rape, there was plenty on both sides, though again only the Red Army an "official policy" encouraging it. And after 3+years at the tender mercies of the Gestapo and the SS, it's hard to blame them too much. Russia suffered more dead than all the rest of the war's participants (excluding China) together. Doesn't make it right..., but it does help explain it.
Would you know where I might find such a poster? Seen plenty of cheesy posters but nothing with any slogans promoting looting.
I'm also a bit puzzled. I was under the impression that RA troops had no ability to mail enything except letters, and even those were on a liberty mail-like blank that folded into a roughly 6" equalateral triangle. I'd also be a bit curious to find out where the average RA soldier would stuff this copious amount of loot when all his worldy posessions consisted to the contents of his pockets and a rather small rucksack...at least until he was able to hitch a ride to the rear to the nearest mailing post (AFAIK RA soldiers got liberty from the front only in extreme cases, such as an addendum to a high order decoration, and even then it came with orders to proceed from point to point without deviation. Incidentally, abserteeism was automatically construed as disertion, punishable by death). [&:]
I agree that the RA "requisitioned" plenty of stuff, cars, trucks, etc. A lot of which found its way to Russia and in many cases was still around all the way to the 50s. I would also assume that a lot of stuff was looted either by the rear area troops or during later occupation. But I disagree that there was an official policy.
"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok
Hehe, this is why I was so glad to have been living in tokyo when the movie came out! I saw it in its second week[:'(]. I speak japanese pretty good, but the japanese in this movie is actually very hard. First of all: a lot of the main characters come from Hiroshima, so they speak in the Osaka dialect (i believe), which is different from standard tokyo japanese. That made it a little hard for me to understand. Also, when they're aboard the ship, they use many naval terms with which i am unfamiliar. It is one of my favourite japanese films of all time though. Dunno if itll come out in the US. I sent one of my chinese friends to try to find it, he can usually get these movies in Toronto where he has several asian contacts, but he was totally unable to get it. [:(] The movie's also been out for almost a year so...
Hiroshima dialect? No wonder I can't understand a thing they say![X(][:D] Hehe. (Pssh - I don't even know how to count 1 to 10 in Japanese).[:D] I like the movie very much and I will buy the dvd soon - with or without the subtitle. Would you care to provide synopsis for us WITPgames who buy the movie? Please, please[&o][&o][:D]
Another thing occurs to me about the snippets that accent the one side it's presented from a bit. The AA gunners are all human beings, whilst the planes are merely machines. You could take the exact same story as presented and make it sentimental to the pilots that were shot down, although doubtlessly the ship crew members got the worst of it. Part of making the pilots the more sentimental losses would be simply to reverse the human being to machine angle; suddenly it's the pilots who are presented with talking and desperation while the ship and the gunners are silent and firing away. I don't recall seeing a single pilot in all of that, which certainly doesn't follow The Longest Day angle of showing both sides with their ups and downs.
There are two movies due out soon on the battle for Iwo Jima, one is based on the book Flags of our Fathers (IIRC the title correctly) and looks at the battle from the US side and the flag raising in particular. The other is being produced in Japan and looks at the battle from their point of view. It would have been nice if the Yamato could have been given the same treatment, but after that horrid movie that shall not be named here, that was based on 7 Dec 41, and the latest Tom Cruise stinker, I think Hollywood might be a little gun shy about putting so much into a film that would need to rely on computer graphics for much of its content.
Lol, in those 20 minutes of film, as you can tell, there isn't too much to be understood. A few points when dialogue may come in handy though.
Lone AA gunner yelling something to the guys carrying ammo: "Send more ammo! Send more ammo!" He just keeps yelling it over and over again, like a madman.
Captain saying something to another guy near a speaking tube: I can't understand everything that is said, but I gather the captain is trying to send a last message to the homeland saying that they have failed. One sailor then turns to him and says "We have no sound!(Presumably on the radio), I'll try the telegram!" He then gets downstairs and finds that everyone is dead. Meanwhile, the captain is giving the order to abandon ship, which is repeated all over the yamato.
Near the end, the captain in his command post saying something: "Everyone, it's too bad...We gave it a good try.
Those 2 wounded sailors throwing the 3rd one overboard: If you watch the whole movie, you will figure out that the 2 sailors are in their late 30s, and have rank, while the 3rd sailor, who happens to be the main character, is only about 18-19, and just joined the crew at the start of the movie. the 2 sailors say: "We got the order to abandon ship. Quickly, you have to get off!" "No! I want to stay and fight!" "No more! The fight's over!" (He then gives him a piece of paper. That has something to do with an earlier plotline in the movie, but I can't remember what[:'(]) "This is my life, I'm giving it to you."
Second sailor then comes and gargles up blood, saying "Kamiya... quickly... get off the ship." "No! I'll stay with you!" "When we tell you to get off, you get off, understand?" "No! No! I'll stay with you!" "Stand up!" "Noo noooo" and then he's thrown overboard.
This is as good a translation as I could make for that little conversation. Japanese is difficult to translate to english because some of the sentence structures are very different. Litteraly translated, Kamiya would have been repeating: "I want to stay with." and the other sailor would have said something like "Go we tell you thing you don't understand?" So I had to turn some sentences around for them to make sense in english. [:)]
"Hard pressed on my right; my left is in retreat. My center is yielding. Impossible to maneuver. Situation excellent. I am attacking."
-Gen. Joffre, before the battle of the Marne
