Another way to get Chinese slots

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider
So I take it you're not interested in the China I put together for Treespider's CHS?

I am interested. But I have yet to have a close look at it. It is on "the list" though. I just made my comment above to indicate that there are still people interested in CHS corrections.

Actually I don't want to play around with China too much, but I do want to improve the accuracy of the OOB if units are in the wrong place, for example, and I am also thinking of reducing the number of Chinese engineers.

Andrew

Andrew,

concerning your map and China: Please make Yenen and surroundings mountain (or at least wood) hexes in your next map version. The Chinese Communists retreated ("The Long March") to this area because it was rather rugged/mountain terrain and easy to defend (originally against the KMT Army, of course). In your current map version it is a Clear hex and quite easy to take...

[Similar issue with the border hex between Manchuria and the Maritime Province near Vladivostok, this should be wood terrain; and the map is missing some rather impressive mountain ranges at the border between Outer Mongolia and Manchuria.]

K

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider
So I take it you're not interested in the China I put together for Treespider's CHS?

I am interested. But I have yet to have a close look at it. It is on "the list" though. I just made my comment above to indicate that there are still people interested in CHS corrections.

Actually I don't want to play around with China too much, but I do want to improve the accuracy of the OOB if units are in the wrong place, for example, and I am also thinking of reducing the number of Chinese engineers.

Andrew

Andrew,

concerning your map and China: Please make Yenen and surroundings mountain (or at least wood) hexes in your next map version. The Chinese Communists retreated ("The Long March") to this area because it was rather rugged/mountain terrain and easy to defend (originally against the KMT Army, of course). In your current map version it is a Clear hex and quite easy to take...

I agree.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It would be more germane to post modifications to the RHS data set.

More germane to you, but not me. I am interested in any corrections to the CHS data. Any corrections to the Chinese OOB are very welcome, and will presumably be useful to anyone interested, not just me.

I am still gathering fixes/updates for CHS, even though the next update is still stalled (for now).

Thanks,

Andrew

OK - so you are monitoring still. And that is fine by me. I don't mind if the thread serves more than one mod in the least. But I also am not getting very much of what I asked for - only one unit changed location as a result of this thread.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: el cid again

It would be more germane to post modifications to the RHS data set.

More germane to you, but not me. I am interested in any corrections to the CHS data. Any corrections to the Chinese OOB are very welcome, and will presumably be useful to anyone interested, not just me.

I am still gathering fixes/updates for CHS, even though the next update is still stalled (for now).

Thanks,

Andrew

So I take it you're not interested in the China I put together for Treespider's CHS?

I am not sure to whom this question is addressed - but since I am the original poster of the thread it seems it might be me. Since you are quoting Andrew it also might be him. As for myself, I don't know waht Treespider's CHS means in China terms. I do know you were not impressed by my usage of the terms field army and group army - never mind these are universal in Chinese. What does Treespider's CHS China have that might make it helpful to getting a better picture of Chinese forces we don't already have in RHS? Did you add the out year reinforcements? Something else?

In fairness to CHS as it used to be

1) I think it is vastly better than stock

2) I thought it was done by Treespider

3) I think its concept of guerilla units (which were invented by Treespider) is brilliant.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: treespider
So I take it you're not interested in the China I put together for Treespider's CHS?

I am interested. But I have yet to have a close look at it. It is on "the list" though. I just made my comment above to indicate that there are still people interested in CHS corrections.

Actually I don't want to play around with China too much, but I do want to improve the accuracy of the OOB if units are in the wrong place, for example, and I am also thinking of reducing the number of Chinese engineers.

Andrew

Andrew,

concerning your map and China: Please make Yenen and surroundings mountain (or at least wood) hexes in your next map version. The Chinese Communists retreated ("The Long March") to this area because it was rather rugged/mountain terrain and easy to defend (originally against the KMT Army, of course). In your current map version it is a Clear hex and quite easy to take...

[Similar issue with the border hex between Manchuria and the Maritime Province near Vladivostok, this should be wood terrain; and the map is missing some rather impressive mountain ranges at the border between Outer Mongolia and Manchuria.]

K

We added a great deal of mountain terrain in the RHS map system. And note that RHS Level 5 pwhex can be used with CHS maps - so can Level 5 map art. I once studied Chinese Geography (in which I have 3 college credits). China is the size of the USA but much more mountainous - about 60% of the country in mountain in a sense we would not dispute if we saw them. The "Porcupine Mountains" of the Western Upper Pinnensula of Michigan are mere hills by comparison.

[Nikademus]

Tree:

have you read "China's bitter victory"?

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: el cid again


I am not sure to whom this question is addressed - but since I am the original poster of the thread it seems it might be me. Since you are quoting Andrew it also might be him. As for myself, I don't know waht Treespider's CHS means in China terms. I do know you were not impressed by my usage of the terms field army and group army - never mind these are universal in Chinese. What does Treespider's CHS China have that might make it helpful to getting a better picture of Chinese forces we don't already have in RHS? Did you add the out year reinforcements? Something else?

In fairness to CHS as it used to be

1) I think it is vastly better than stock

2) I thought it was done by Treespider

3) I think its concept of guerilla units (which were invented by Treespider) is brilliant.

Yes the original Chinese changes from Stock in CHS were done by Treespider then altered slightly by AB.

Treespider's CHS is a modification of the Chinese in CHS based on playing experience. These chnages include the following:

- addition of c.30 bases to China
- correction of the starting locations of some of the jun....which I refer to as Corps and you refer to as Armies. (I base my usage of Hsu Long-hsuen book and an article on the PLA by Kenneth Allen.) The use of corps allows the Chinese to break down the units if they choose...
- modification of the TO&E. The original CHS work was merely an OOB and locational switch.
- made the Guerillas para-capable to give the Chinese some capablity to reinfiltrate the japanese rear - yes it is a complete workaround because of code limitations
- added 4 large static Guerilla Base Forces to create "safe-havens" for the Chinese in the Japanese rear

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Tree:

have you read "China's bitter victory"?

I should have it on my shelf by tomorrow...

[Nikademus]

a good set of essays. Cleared up some of the questions thrown around this forum from time to time. Raised some questions too....but thats China for ya. [;)]

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

a good set of essays. Cleared up some of the questions thrown around this forum from time to time. Raised some questions too....but thats China for ya. [;)]

Skimming through it on questia...I suppose it would be useful as an overview document...but as with everything I'll take witha grain of salt. Some of the facts I've seen in it within the last few minutes I question based on other sources I have looked at...

[Nikademus]

every source pretty much must be taken with a grain of salt. Certainly China, the wartime subject, will remain a highly debated one.

[m10bob]

I posted a thread today called "good maps"..Look at it and find some really good maps of China, in detail, including transortation routes of WW2, and MOUNTAINS,RIVERS,etc...

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
Andrew,

concerning your map and China: Please make Yenen and surroundings mountain (or at least wood) hexes in your next map version. The Chinese Communists retreated ("The Long March") to this area because it was rather rugged/mountain terrain and easy to defend (originally against the KMT Army, of course). In your current map version it is a Clear hex and quite easy to take...

I assume you mean Yenan (which is called Yenen on the stock map)? OK, I will take a look at the area again. I usually only use mountains for truly mountainous areas (heights > 3000m), so I will probably add some forest - which has to be used for "rough" terrain - if it seems justified.

[Similar issue with the border hex between Manchuria and the Maritime Province near Vladivostok, this should be wood terrain; and the map is missing some rather impressive mountain ranges at the border between Outer Mongolia and Manchuria.]

K

OK. I will take a look. I know the area you mean between Greater Mongolia and Manchuria. Regarding the border hex near Vladivostok - do you mean the hex on the Manchuria side, the hexes on the Soviet side, or both?

Thanks,
Andrew

[treespider]

ORIGINAL: m10bob

I posted a thread today called "good maps"..Look at it and find some really good maps of China, in detail, including transortation routes of WW2, and MOUNTAINS,RIVERS,etc...

You mean like these...

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Tree:

have you read "China's bitter victory"?

Good book - by an ethnic Chinese academic resident in the USA. I have corresponded with him about more modern matters. He sometimes helps with research.

[treespider]

-

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: el cid again


I am not sure to whom this question is addressed - but since I am the original poster of the thread it seems it might be me. Since you are quoting Andrew it also might be him. As for myself, I don't know waht Treespider's CHS means in China terms. I do know you were not impressed by my usage of the terms field army and group army - never mind these are universal in Chinese. What does Treespider's CHS China have that might make it helpful to getting a better picture of Chinese forces we don't already have in RHS? Did you add the out year reinforcements? Something else?

In fairness to CHS as it used to be

1) I think it is vastly better than stock

2) I thought it was done by Treespider

3) I think its concept of guerilla units (which were invented by Treespider) is brilliant.

Yes the original Chinese changes from Stock in CHS were done by Treespider then altered slightly by AB.

Treespider's CHS is a modification of the Chinese in CHS based on playing experience. These chnages include the following:

- addition of c.30 bases to China
- correction of the starting locations of some of the jun....which I refer to as Corps and you refer to as Armies. (I base my usage of Hsu Long-hsuen book and an article on the PLA by Kenneth Allen.) The use of corps allows the Chinese to break down the units if they choose...
- modification of the TO&E. The original CHS work was merely an OOB and locational switch.
- made the Guerillas para-capable to give the Chinese some capablity to reinfiltrate the japanese rear - yes it is a complete workaround because of code limitations
- added 4 large static Guerilla Base Forces to create "safe-havens" for the Chinese in the Japanese rear

I think we may have moved in similar directions by entirely different means. I used mountains in particular to make things more defensible, and improved the logistical areas so the economy will function in a number of areas - and made guerillas almost supply independent - larger in organization - and because we have smaller heavy weapons than other mods - we were able to give them mortars and machine guns as well. I don't see any particular need to divide up Chinese units - there are so many - but divisions of course can do that as well. I am now considering combining the divisions up - to gain slots - IF we end up needing any. Turns out no one is posting even a single ID of a missing unit.

[el cid again]

ORIGINAL: treespider

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

a good set of essays. Cleared up some of the questions thrown around this forum from time to time. Raised some questions too....but thats China for ya. [;)]

Skimming through it on questia...I suppose it would be useful as an overview document...but as with everything I'll take witha grain of salt. Some of the facts I've seen in it within the last few minutes I question based on other sources I have looked at...

Current scholarship WILL cast doube on PAST scholarship. But remember, the new guys have access to archives not previously available. First ROC released theirs. Now PRC has release some. And also Japan has published its official history - which China scholars read a good deal more than Western ones because they can do so more easily Lots of things in the older materials are now - at least - supplimented by more and different information. Often you can not reconcile views from the opposing side - and "the" is the wrong term sometimes - as it was sometimes "several" - but at least you have options now. By and large the new scholar ship is much better - in the sense of more complete as well as less partisan. Time being distant, the current writers do not have as many poilitical axes to grind.

[Kereguelen]

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
Andrew,

concerning your map and China: Please make Yenen and surroundings mountain (or at least wood) hexes in your next map version. The Chinese Communists retreated ("The Long March") to this area because it was rather rugged/mountain terrain and easy to defend (originally against the KMT Army, of course). In your current map version it is a Clear hex and quite easy to take...

I assume you mean Yenan (which is called Yenen on the stock map)? OK, I will take a look at the area again. I usually only use mountains for truly mountainous areas (heights > 3000m), so I will probably add some forest - which has to be used for "rough" terrain - if it seems justified.

[Similar issue with the border hex between Manchuria and the Maritime Province near Vladivostok, this should be wood terrain; and the map is missing some rather impressive mountain ranges at the border between Outer Mongolia and Manchuria.]

K

OK. I will take a look. I know the area you mean between Greater Mongolia and Manchuria. Regarding the border hex near Vladivostok - do you mean the hex on the Manchuria side, the hexes on the Soviet side, or both?

Thanks,
Andrew

Yes, was talking about Yenan (many spellings possible). Only heights > 3000m as mountains? In some places heights > 3000m would be inaccessible, while in other places not (just to give an example: Italy is quite mountaineous but the mountain ranges on the peninsula are mostly not very high; the Monte Cassino: 516m..., the Corno Grande as highest peak of the Gran Sasso d'Italia: 2,912m). Iwo Jima is mountain terrain in WITP but Mount Suribachi is 166m high.

The border hexes are 63/32, 64/32, 65/32. Not sure about 64/31 because it contains a big city (Mutankiang)

[Andrew Brown]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen
Only heights > 3000m as mountains? In some places heights > 3000m would be inaccessible, while in other places not (just to give an example: Italy is quite mountaineous but the mountain ranges on the peninsula are mostly not very high; the Monte Cassino: 516m..., the Corno Grande as highest peak of the Gran Sasso d'Italia: 2,912m). Iwo Jima is mountain terrain in WITP but Mount Suribachi is 166m high.

Well, I can't actually remember whether I used 3000m or 2500m. One of the two. But I need to use some sort of criteria - the alternative is to asses every potential mountain hex on the map individually to determine how rugged it is, which isn't really an option.

There needs to be a "rough" hex type, which would be, say x2 defence. In the absence of such a thing I have to use "forest" to represent areas of rough terrain that are not coded as mountains. I don't actually think Iwo Jima should be a mountain hex.

Andrew