ORIGINAL: WiZz
If SoI was done logically this exploit would not have been. Can you remember that situation in rots?
Maybe you played a different game?C'mon, man.. It's common sense. The AI doesn't do it. Those planets don't even show up on your list by default.
I remember the situation in RotS where you had to colonise everything which possibly could be in systems you already owned so that the computer would not. Maybe you played a different game?
ORIGINAL: WiZz
C'mon, man.. It's common sense. The AI doesn't do it. Those planets don't even show up on your list by default.
[:-] What about button "Show low-quality planet"?
And listen with attention how it sounds. "Don't use some tactics, because AI is fool and can't handle with it."
I want repeat some thing. DW is STRATEGY. This genre of games provides thinking a lot about different tactics and ways how to kill enemy more effectively. And when I hear that don't use this thing, because you easy win, although game has a theoretical possibility to use it properly, I think that this game is not very good.
ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube
If you're looking for an AI that compete with humans, you better go back to Chess. DW is way too complex for that. I find the game challenging, but it will always be through abritrary restrictions that this game can EVER be challenging. We are a very long ways from AI that can do what DWs AI needs to do, and do it the way a human would do it.
If it's too difficult, just add a button that turn SoI off.
Just to put everyone at ease, one of the things we're considering for Spheres of Influence is a setting that allows you to adjust their strength or weakness to your liking.
Wholeheartedly agree. Let economics and defense considerations decide whether or not you've overextended. If you have, then you'll pay the penalty of a stretched economy and increased vulnerability to your opponents.ORIGINAL: the1sean
Artificially limiting colonization distance:
I absolutely disagree with this, for both "realism" and gameplay reasons.
Realism - similar to other examples already given, the Vikings colonized when and where they wanted to. They colonized nearby areas within enemy territory (i.e: SOI) likeNormandy France. They also colonized far away and disjointed areas on the other side of huge enemy empires; Greenland, Iceland, and America.
ORIGINAL: hal9000
ORIGINAL: MasterChief
Hmmm... this brings up an interesting possibility.
First - I don’t agree with limiting colonization limit. If your fuel allows for long rang colonization then it should be allowed. Examples in history include the ancient Phoenicians and Greeks who colonized to the extreme limits of their technology (and yes this made for some messy boarders and diplomacy).
However, there should be tradeoffs. Besides an increase in maintenance, colonies at extreme range should be more susceptible to rebellion and establishing independent colonies (Ancient Carthage and the not so ancient USA are great examples) [;)]
So before chartering that colony ship you would need to consider if it is worth the extra money, naval and troop presence and governor character assignment that would be needed to keep the colony in the empire.
wouldn't the correct comparison to real life be phoenicians and greeks colonizing south east asia and ancient china grabbing some colonies in europe, whilst the arabs colonize every available desert between mojave and gobi cause they are the only ones capable of living there [;)]
ORIGINAL: the1sean
SOI and the ability for colonization/mining within SOI:
I really really like the addition of SOI, and I think that it models territorial brinkmanship pretty dang well. I challenge someone to show me a vastly superior model already successfully implemented in another strategy game. That said, I can understand the argument for the ability to colonize within another empire's SOI without declaring war, and I agree that empires should be able to colonize/mine within SOI without war but that there should be an immediate relations and reputation hit.
ORIGINAL:Artificially limiting colonization distance:
I absolutely disagree with this, for both "realism" and gameplay reasons.
Realism - similar to other examples already given, the Vikings colonized when and where they wanted to. They colonized nearby areas within enemy territory (i.e: SOI) likeNormandy France. They also colonized far away and disjointed areas on the other side of huge enemy empires; Greenland, Iceland, and America.
Ashbery76, what were all the settings changes that you made for that mod?ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76
I just modded the game with a migration 400% buff and ran it for a while.New colonies were getting 700+miliion people and 100 development and the SOI hardly moved.It seem only massive 10000m colonies really effect it.New colonies in a normal game are never going to reach that.I really hope this is fixed.
I suggested a harsh reputation penalty for colonizing/mining within SOI. When you attack opponents with poor reputation your reputation hits are much lower than rep hits for attacking an opponent with an awesome rep. So long story short it should actually work out well.ORIGINAL: feelotraveller
If this is to be allowed as you suggest without a war declaration at all, then I want to be able to attack any mining bases within my sphere of influence at no reputation penalty and without the need to declare war. Same thing with newly established colonies (in my former SoI) say for the period of a year even though they now produce their own sphere of influence. Otherwise I am paying reputation to enforce my sphere of influence which makes a mockery of it existing in the first place.
The reason they had to progressively expand outward is because of tech limitations, which is also modeled in DW, but my main point is that they colonized out way past other major powers SoI. Whether they did so through previous colonies within other major nation SoI is irrelevant to my point, and actually supports my first point about colonization.ORIGINAL: Torgrim
ORIGINAL:Artificially limiting colonization distance:
I absolutely disagree with this, for both "realism" and gameplay reasons.
Realism - similar to other examples already given, the Vikings colonized when and where they wanted to. They colonized nearby areas within enemy territory (i.e: SOI) likeNormandy France. They also colonized far away and disjointed areas on the other side of huge enemy empires; Greenland, Iceland, and America.
First of all The French gave Rollo Normandy so they would stop raiding France, it was a peace treaty.
Second, did the Vikings sail all the way to America to build a up a colony and skipped Island,Greenland ect?
No, it took them 200 years to reach America, the first real Viking colonies outside Scandinavia were in close proximity and gradually they increased their range of colonial sphere.
Amongst the first West colonies were Orkney and Shetland, then England, then Iceland then Greenland and last America.
Vikings to the east started colonizing Baltic coast first then went inland slowly till they reach Kiev area.
What i mean with this Viking example is that they slowly expanded, not like in DW where AI Empires plants colonies all over the map.
ORIGINAL: the1sean
The reason they had to progressively expand outward is because of tech limitationsORIGINAL: Torgrim
ORIGINAL:Artificially limiting colonization distance:
I absolutely disagree with this, for both "realism" and gameplay reasons.
Realism - similar to other examples already given, the Vikings colonized when and where they wanted to. They colonized nearby areas within enemy territory (i.e: SOI) likeNormandy France. They also colonized far away and disjointed areas on the other side of huge enemy empires; Greenland, Iceland, and America.
First of all The French gave Rollo Normandy so they would stop raiding France, it was a peace treaty.
Second, did the Vikings sail all the way to America to build a up a colony and skipped Island,Greenland ect?
No, it took them 200 years to reach America, the first real Viking colonies outside Scandinavia were in close proximity and gradually they increased their range of colonial sphere.
Amongst the first West colonies were Orkney and Shetland, then England, then Iceland then Greenland and last America.
Vikings to the east started colonizing Baltic coast first then went inland slowly till they reach Kiev area.
What i mean with this Viking example is that they slowly expanded, not like in DW where AI Empires plants colonies all over the map.
ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube
If you're looking for an AI that compete with humans, you better go back to Chess. DW is way too complex for that. I find the game challenging, but it will always be through abritrary restrictions that this game can EVER be challenging. We are a very long ways from AI that can do what DWs AI needs to do, and do it the way a human would do it.
I point you to AI War.. the best strategic AI available for a game of this scope. The entire concept revolves around the AI having a serious advantage over you in every concievable way, and winning requires dozens of hours slogging through an uphill battle. It is lots of fun, but not DW. If you want that kind of challenge, the only way you will get it in DW is to change your starting settings to something similar.
Otherwise, just enjoy the incredibly complex beast that is DW for what it is: The most complete 4x game so far. As has always been true, for every 4x game EVER, the AI will always fail to make the same kind of strategic decisions that you do. Arguing that is pointless, unless you've got some cool AI-coding methods that nobody has ever heard of.
ORIGINAL: the1sean
I suggested a harsh reputation penalty for colonizing/mining within SOI. When you attack opponents with poor reputation your reputation hits are much lower than rep hits for attacking an opponent with an awesome rep. So long story short it should actually work out well.ORIGINAL: feelotraveller
If this is to be allowed as you suggest without a war declaration at all, then I want to be able to attack any mining bases within my sphere of influence at no reputation penalty and without the need to declare war. Same thing with newly established colonies (in my former SoI) say for the period of a year even though they now produce their own sphere of influence. Otherwise I am paying reputation to enforce my sphere of influence which makes a mockery of it existing in the first place.
ORIGINAL: feelotraveller
I don't think that mining/colonisation should happen in SoI. I think war should need to be declared and the colony (or colonies) producing the sphere of influence should need to be exterminated/conquered for you to be able to mine/colonise.
If this is to be allowed as you suggest without a war declaration at all, then I want to be able to attack any mining bases within my sphere of influence at no reputation penalty and without the need to declare war. Same thing with newly established colonies (in my former SoI) say for the period of a year even though they now produce their own sphere of influence. Otherwise I am paying reputation to enforce my sphere of influence which makes a mockery of it existing in the first place.
But really you just shouldn't be able to mine/colonise in a sphere of influence. You should have to remove/counter that influence before doing so.
ORIGINAL: feelotraveller
If this is to be allowed as you suggest without a war declaration at all, then I want to be able to attack any mining bases within my sphere of influence at no reputation penalty and without the need to declare war. Same thing with newly established colonies (in my former SoI) say for the period of a year even though they now produce their own sphere of influence. Otherwise I am paying reputation to enforce my sphere of influence which makes a mockery of it existing in the first place.
- Permit colonization and mining in SoI, but with big reputation/relation hit. The ships of intruder can be destroyed without warnings and reputation of defender is not affected.
ORIGINAL: Malevolence
ORIGINAL: Gelatinous Cube
If you're looking for an AI that compete with humans, you better go back to Chess. DW is way too complex for that. I find the game challenging, but it will always be through abritrary restrictions that this game can EVER be challenging. We are a very long ways from AI that can do what DWs AI needs to do, and do it the way a human would do it.
I point you to AI War.. the best strategic AI available for a game of this scope. The entire concept revolves around the AI having a serious advantage over you in every concievable way, and winning requires dozens of hours slogging through an uphill battle. It is lots of fun, but not DW. If you want that kind of challenge, the only way you will get it in DW is to change your starting settings to something similar.
Otherwise, just enjoy the incredibly complex beast that is DW for what it is: The most complete 4x game so far. As has always been true, for every 4x game EVER, the AI will always fail to make the same kind of strategic decisions that you do. Arguing that is pointless, unless you've got some cool AI-coding methods that nobody has ever heard of.
actually making an AI to kick human players' butts every time is easy for a game like DW. The art is making the AI challenging for most people by almost kicking their butts.
