Pelton, the raid option is real unhistorical, because there is no option to threat the german advacing forces. That is why the +1 option was a good idea. Howerver, the soviet side looses in WITE is real low, far from the 1:3 or 1:4 loose ratio what was the cost of those attack during WW2.
Right now, both sides have relative small looses, because there is no option for the soviet to stand and fight. The factory evacuation cost low number of transport point, and the german raid is to fast. Air supply, and HQBU really favor the german, and the soviet can't defend.
I belive on my next game (after 1.08.05. finally will arrive), I will try with 50 % transport limitation and 50 % fort build settings, because it's more realistic, then attach 3 construct to HQ and dig in. That makes WW1 style for both sides, with the current 100 % rules.
The Zhukov-less Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
Moderators: Joel Billings, Sabre21
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Callistrid
- Posts: 669
- Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 12:27 pm
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
ORIGINAL: hfarrish
ORIGINAL: Pelton
ORIGINAL: Callistrid
Honestly, the +1 rule gives chance to stand and fight, counterattack, not just to retreat, build forts, and set reserve. Without +1 rule, the soviet can't lead any successful counterattack against the german, just try to minimize the troop and territorial losses. With the soviet side, need just to see where is the current rail line, check the defendable locations, retreat if it's necessary, and never care with the german infantry. Boring game type.
Personally I never agree with Peltons middle earth critic. Maybe +1 was little harsh, but +0,5 would be the balanced option.
And I always hate the motorized raid attack, when players send them into dark without fear.
and if can read, Russia was never able to mount a counter attack or stand and fight from June to October. If Germany wanted it they took it.
This is nonsense. Please make nonsense history stop. I can't read it anymore.
Guess he never heard of the battle for Smolensk.
Building a new PC.
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
ORIGINAL: hfarrish
ORIGINAL: Pelton
ORIGINAL: Callistrid
Honestly, the +1 rule gives chance to stand and fight, counterattack, not just to retreat, build forts, and set reserve. Without +1 rule, the soviet can't lead any successful counterattack against the german, just try to minimize the troop and territorial losses. With the soviet side, need just to see where is the current rail line, check the defendable locations, retreat if it's necessary, and never care with the german infantry. Boring game type.
Personally I never agree with Peltons middle earth critic. Maybe +1 was little harsh, but +0,5 would be the balanced option.
And I always hate the motorized raid attack, when players send them into dark without fear.
and if can read, Russia was never able to mount a counter attack or stand and fight from June to October. If Germany wanted it they took it.
This is nonsense. Please make nonsense history stop. I can't read it anymore.
Yeah, Pelton's gotta pull is head out of his "Paul Carell".
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
There were Soviets attacks in 1941 that bore fruit (as at Smolensk.. by the way, unlike WITE the Germans experienced high casualties reducing the Smolensk pocket) but the vast majority of Soviet soldiers were poorly trained. Granted they were tenacious in defense (assuming they were in a deep foxhole. adequately armed, and "encouraged" by communist political commissars who were often the real small unit commanders) but in attack they were like herds of cattle.
Pelton is accurate in his view of Soviet combat initiative, IMO.
Pelton is accurate in his view of Soviet combat initiative, IMO.
WITE is a good addiction with no cure.
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
Attack Doctrine doesn't work because the Russian isn't committed to use it. They run all summer and then "discover" their doctrine come winter. BS. Use it in summer, or lose it.
Clichés about Russian combat abilities aside, either combat losses are too low all round or players are using hindsight to lessen the quantity of combat and thereby accumulate massively ahistorical armies. In my view, that's the issue to determine, whether players are fighting too little to arrive at ahistorical force levels or whether casualties across the board- not just urban fighting- are too low. I suspect the latter.
Perhaps a greater number of unit, hex or combat stances should be available in WitE 2, determining the command's desire for combat tenacity in attack and defence. More tenacity, assuming morale doesn't break, more casualties and higher break-off threshold.
Clichés about Russian combat abilities aside, either combat losses are too low all round or players are using hindsight to lessen the quantity of combat and thereby accumulate massively ahistorical armies. In my view, that's the issue to determine, whether players are fighting too little to arrive at ahistorical force levels or whether casualties across the board- not just urban fighting- are too low. I suspect the latter.
Perhaps a greater number of unit, hex or combat stances should be available in WitE 2, determining the command's desire for combat tenacity in attack and defence. More tenacity, assuming morale doesn't break, more casualties and higher break-off threshold.
“Old age is the most unexpected of all things that can happen to a man.”
-Leon Trotsky
-Leon Trotsky
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
There were a number of successful counterattacks prior to October, actually. Army and even Front sized counterattacks. Most notably by Timoshenko against AGC when the latter stalled during mid summer, and also Vatutin's counterattack near Novgorod, which bought Leningrad several weeks.
But as we all know not across the hole front starting turn 4 to turn 8 5-15 per turn what 100+
Then during blizzard 30+ per turn.
As we know before 1.07 people copy cat tactics simply trashed the game.
Germany not able to get past land bridge or get close to Stalino and Russia on the offensive July 42, simply unhistorical and it completely killed the large following WitE had.
The current ruleset has the front basicly ending at historical lines other then Leningrad falling which it should have anyways.
PLUS
.05 will limit HQBU and supplies to 20 and not 25.
Fuel drops have been completely nerfed.
1v1=2v1 simply is not historical and was a game killer.
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
ORIGINAL: RedBunny
ORIGINAL: hfarrish
ORIGINAL: Pelton
and if can read, Russia was never able to mount a counter attack or stand and fight from June to October. If Germany wanted it they took it.
This is nonsense. Please make nonsense history stop. I can't read it anymore.
Yeah, Pelton's gotta pull is head out of his "Paul Carell".
1. I am not Hitler
2. Your not Stalin
3. WitE is a game and not a movie or a book.
1v1=2v1 is just simply clearly to easy to exploit as I showed in a test game with sapper, he won 98% of the time 15-20 times per turn.
Hoooper does the same thing and we are talking summer 41 vs 2 or 3 infantry in woods, not panzers in the open. Infantry behind rivers ect ect.
You guys are cherry picking the less then a hand full of "attacks" most ended as disasters starting with directive No. 3 on the authority of Chief of General Staff Georgy Zhukov.
Epic cluster **** which was the normal Russian counter attack not winning 98% of the time as 1v1=2v1 does if you know how to rig the system as Flaviusx knows how its done.
As we have talked in length about its abuse by players.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brody_(1941)
And Redbunny I look at all the historical data unlike most people.
I have pushed for nerfing allot of things on German side to even the playing field.
The coin has two sides not one, flip it over.
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
4-10 December 1941 (25th week of the war)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwC4Bb-mSzQ
Our counteroffensive across the entire front is underway. Temperatures as expected have plummeted in some places to 50 degrees below freezing amid heavy snowfall. The Germans are pulling back everywhere at a rate of approximately 5 kilometers a day. Kalinin has been taken by Vostrukhov’s 22nd Army. Vyshny Volocheck is taken by 27th Army. The 20th Mountain Cavalry Division in the south is outside Voroshilovgrad which has been abandoned by the German occupiers.
I had numerous briefings from the various directorates within the Red Army as it related to our force status.
Armored Directorate reported 98 tank units of 7 tank divisions (1379 AFVs) and 91 tank brigades (4422 AFVs) active.
Infantry Directorate reported the following units in the Red Army:
315 Rifle Divisions
103 Rifle Brigades
11 Mountain Divisions
A total of 377 Rifle Division Equivalents
Cavalry consists of 17 corps, 10 divisions, and 5 mountain cavalry divisions
Artillery Directorate reports forming first 3 Katyusha regiments in Moscow Military District.
10 vehicle factories moved from Moscow to Ufa.
1 U2VS aircraft factories from Moscow to reduce production to a total of 4.
190 sapper regiments have been raised to date.
Yak-7a production begun in Moscow and Novosibirsk @ 18 aircraft per week.
Spoke with Vatutin by phone to inquire how things were in his 8th Army. He reports all going well. I also asked if he had any more success stories to share. Nothing new with Colonel Yukevich and the 291st Rifle Division. The 268th Rifle Division had a new commander as Colonel Chernyakhovsky had been transferred the previous week at Vatutin's request to a new division, the 44th Rifle, forming in the Southern Urals. It was thought Chernyakhovsky's success in fighting with unseasoned troops such as had been the case in the 268th Rifle Division might be duplicated elsewhere.
Received wireless updates from the four cavalry armies the field; Bobkin's 1st Shock, Rokossovsky's 33rd, Vasilevsky's 34th and Bagramyan's 50th. All are ready to drive hard against the Fascists. Each corps within the armies is being assigned two sapper regiments.
To the Valdai Hills
Moscow
Tula
Stalino-Rostov
OOB
Ground losses
Production figures
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwC4Bb-mSzQ
Our counteroffensive across the entire front is underway. Temperatures as expected have plummeted in some places to 50 degrees below freezing amid heavy snowfall. The Germans are pulling back everywhere at a rate of approximately 5 kilometers a day. Kalinin has been taken by Vostrukhov’s 22nd Army. Vyshny Volocheck is taken by 27th Army. The 20th Mountain Cavalry Division in the south is outside Voroshilovgrad which has been abandoned by the German occupiers.
I had numerous briefings from the various directorates within the Red Army as it related to our force status.
Armored Directorate reported 98 tank units of 7 tank divisions (1379 AFVs) and 91 tank brigades (4422 AFVs) active.
Infantry Directorate reported the following units in the Red Army:
315 Rifle Divisions
103 Rifle Brigades
11 Mountain Divisions
A total of 377 Rifle Division Equivalents
Cavalry consists of 17 corps, 10 divisions, and 5 mountain cavalry divisions
Artillery Directorate reports forming first 3 Katyusha regiments in Moscow Military District.
10 vehicle factories moved from Moscow to Ufa.
1 U2VS aircraft factories from Moscow to reduce production to a total of 4.
190 sapper regiments have been raised to date.
Yak-7a production begun in Moscow and Novosibirsk @ 18 aircraft per week.
Spoke with Vatutin by phone to inquire how things were in his 8th Army. He reports all going well. I also asked if he had any more success stories to share. Nothing new with Colonel Yukevich and the 291st Rifle Division. The 268th Rifle Division had a new commander as Colonel Chernyakhovsky had been transferred the previous week at Vatutin's request to a new division, the 44th Rifle, forming in the Southern Urals. It was thought Chernyakhovsky's success in fighting with unseasoned troops such as had been the case in the 268th Rifle Division might be duplicated elsewhere.
Received wireless updates from the four cavalry armies the field; Bobkin's 1st Shock, Rokossovsky's 33rd, Vasilevsky's 34th and Bagramyan's 50th. All are ready to drive hard against the Fascists. Each corps within the armies is being assigned two sapper regiments.
To the Valdai Hills
Moscow
Tula
Stalino-Rostov
OOB
Ground losses
Production figures
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
11-17 December 1941 (26th week of the war)
Torzhok fell to Vostrukhov’s 22nd Army
The Germans continue to give ground at the same rate as the previous week.
A Strategic decision is reached to force the Germans to fight in the north based on a 10-week offensive gaining 30-35 kilometers per week.
Aircraft production was shipped from Moscow to Serov.
Northwest Front
Western Front
Tula-Orel
Advance towards Stalino
Torzhok fell to Vostrukhov’s 22nd Army
The Germans continue to give ground at the same rate as the previous week.
A Strategic decision is reached to force the Germans to fight in the north based on a 10-week offensive gaining 30-35 kilometers per week.
Aircraft production was shipped from Moscow to Serov.
Northwest Front
Western Front
Tula-Orel
Advance towards Stalino
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
Dave has at min a draw and vs me he knows why he has to TKO you in 42 or its a draw long run.
Great AAR by the way, much improved.
Great AAR by the way, much improved.
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
18-24 December 1941 (27th week of the war)
Leningrad and Volkhov Fronts in their march to the west are pressuring the Finns. Lead elements are 20 miles from the Volkhov.
Efremov’s 21st Army of Bryansk Front retakes Tula.
Caucasus Front under Marshal Shaposhnikov is gradually building up strength east of Stalino.
T-60 factories moved from Moscow to Chelnyabinsk. Arms factories are also evacuated from the city.
Northern area
Rzhev area
Tula retaken
Kursk Belgorod
Stalino
Leningrad and Volkhov Fronts in their march to the west are pressuring the Finns. Lead elements are 20 miles from the Volkhov.
Efremov’s 21st Army of Bryansk Front retakes Tula.
Caucasus Front under Marshal Shaposhnikov is gradually building up strength east of Stalino.
T-60 factories moved from Moscow to Chelnyabinsk. Arms factories are also evacuated from the city.
Northern area
Rzhev area
Tula retaken
Kursk Belgorod
Stalino
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
how are you doing for flipping units to Gds? Doesn't look like you have any yet from the screenshots?
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
Painfully slow progress. A number of leading candidates were lost while protecting industry evacuations. Dave does not leave many units in exposed positions to be attacked in large numbers, so it is harder generating unit wins.
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
He is all in on morale is King of The Battle Field strategy then,
Beta Tester WitW & WitE
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
Yes, he is following your playbook in that regard.
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
Hello, could you please tell me which map mod are you using? 
Thanks
Thanks
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
25-31 December 1941 (28th week of the war)
The Germans continue their orderly withdrawal.
Our ground forces now stand at 6.23 million men against 3.55 million German. Artillery tubes 62,100 to their 35,800. Tanks 8,400 to their 4,900. Aircraft 8,300 against their 3,500. We are assured by the Industrial Council that arms productivity will be increasing soon, allowing us to continue to add to our equipment numbers.
The Germans continue their orderly withdrawal.
Our ground forces now stand at 6.23 million men against 3.55 million German. Artillery tubes 62,100 to their 35,800. Tanks 8,400 to their 4,900. Aircraft 8,300 against their 3,500. We are assured by the Industrial Council that arms productivity will be increasing soon, allowing us to continue to add to our equipment numbers.
RE: The Zhukov Memoirs - GC41-45 M60 vs smokindave redux
1-7 January 1942 (29th week of the war)
Two cities have been liberated this week. Kaluga is captured by units of Kurochkin’s 43rd Army, Bryansk Front while Kursk is captured by units of Kostenko’s 26th Army, Southwestern Front.
Operations now focusing on enveloping Orel. Pliev’s 60th Army supported by Rokossovsky’s 33rd are 40 miles north of the city. Bobkin’s 1st Shock supported by tanks of Lelyushenko’s 2nd Shock are south of Orel. Grechko’s 37th Army of Bryansk Front advances to the east of Orel.
Konev’s 24th Army is outside Rzhev.
In the south, Lukin’s 16th Army of Southern Front is 20 miles from Belgorod while Pavel Batov’s 51st Army is 20 miles from Stalino.
Alexandr Vasilevsky is promoted to General-Leytenant. I sent him my heartfelt congratulations.
53rd Army is organized at Moscow, consisting of 7 rifle divisions and 4 rifle brigades. General Leytenant Vasily Chuikov, recently returned from the Far East assumes command. Army of 30,000 men and 800 guns begins to refit.
Chief of Artillery General Voronov issues orders forming the first nine light howitzer brigades at Ivanovo. 59th Army/1st Artillery Army raised under General Maior Kurasov.
Eight tank brigades are disbanded. Red Army tank formations include 7 divisions and 89 brigades.
The Long Range Air Command is reduced to 76 regiments. 27 Pe-2, 25 SB-2 and 12 IL-4 formations are disbanded.
One of the Pe-2 production lines is moved from Kazan to Serov. (1 factory/99% damage. Second line 8 factories/84% damage. This effectively shuts down production of this aircraft). All U2VS production shipped to Verh. Ufaley (4 factories/83-86% damage.)
Two cities have been liberated this week. Kaluga is captured by units of Kurochkin’s 43rd Army, Bryansk Front while Kursk is captured by units of Kostenko’s 26th Army, Southwestern Front.
Operations now focusing on enveloping Orel. Pliev’s 60th Army supported by Rokossovsky’s 33rd are 40 miles north of the city. Bobkin’s 1st Shock supported by tanks of Lelyushenko’s 2nd Shock are south of Orel. Grechko’s 37th Army of Bryansk Front advances to the east of Orel.
Konev’s 24th Army is outside Rzhev.
In the south, Lukin’s 16th Army of Southern Front is 20 miles from Belgorod while Pavel Batov’s 51st Army is 20 miles from Stalino.
Alexandr Vasilevsky is promoted to General-Leytenant. I sent him my heartfelt congratulations.
53rd Army is organized at Moscow, consisting of 7 rifle divisions and 4 rifle brigades. General Leytenant Vasily Chuikov, recently returned from the Far East assumes command. Army of 30,000 men and 800 guns begins to refit.
Chief of Artillery General Voronov issues orders forming the first nine light howitzer brigades at Ivanovo. 59th Army/1st Artillery Army raised under General Maior Kurasov.
Eight tank brigades are disbanded. Red Army tank formations include 7 divisions and 89 brigades.
The Long Range Air Command is reduced to 76 regiments. 27 Pe-2, 25 SB-2 and 12 IL-4 formations are disbanded.
One of the Pe-2 production lines is moved from Kazan to Serov. (1 factory/99% damage. Second line 8 factories/84% damage. This effectively shuts down production of this aircraft). All U2VS production shipped to Verh. Ufaley (4 factories/83-86% damage.)